The Legendary Next Update (365)

1 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-12 15:51 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

So, as Xee is almost done, and I'm mostly waiting for external contributions, I decided it was time to start working on the Legendary Next Update for Kareha and Wakaba.

Only problem is, it's been a long time, and I've forgotten most of what needs to be done. Most of it is mentioned SOMEWHERE on the board, though. So this is your chance to pipe up with your pet feature request, or if you're feeling really helpful, to dig out some old posts that mention things that need fixing.

Hop to it!

2 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-12 16:25 ID:hjzD4Li4 [Del]

How about listing what dmpk2k or you have done already?

  1. Split threads and posts into separate tables. You're repeating the lasthit and parent column over and over.

3 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-12 16:58 ID:Heaven [Del]

Kareha:

  • Conforming of navigation to 0ch standards for conveniency, efficiency, etc., i.e.
  • Navigation links also at the bottom of the thread pages
  • "First 100" to be replaced with "Next 100" (and "Previous 100") in thread pages
  • First post always showing up, even for later quoted ranges. Currently, you can supress this on 0ch by identing "n" before the post range.
  • Default l50 links in all lists
  • Automated archiving, i.e.
  • Automatic thread closing at a configured number of replies and/or thread size (recommended default values: 1000 posts or 512KB)
  • Automatic closing and moving of threads that do not get any activity in a certain timeframe (based on average activity frequency of the board)
  • Bonus features (not really important):
  • Fusianasan (reveal hostname by entering fusianasan or [string] into Name field)
  • Customizable Capcodes (please more than just "Admin", perhaps fancy colours)

4 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-12 17:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

Wakaba:

  • Better handling of the code that automatically inserts the >> links for quote-replies. Right now it inserts them numerous times if you go back and forth several times before actually hitting "submit".
  • Reintroduction of "Marked for deletion (old)" (it's just handy to have that)
  • Prune-limit mode that is defined by number of files or size sum of files on a board

5 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-12 17:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

Additionally, I'd like WakabaMark to be fixed somehow.
I don't know how, though. You know my resentments.

Finally, thanks for your fine work throughout all this time.
It is appreciated!

6 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-12 17:30 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

I fixed the Javascript a bit, and uploaded it for these boards. Try shift-reloading to get the new code, and see if cookies work better now that I'm not using cargo-cult code.

7 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-12 17:41 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

(Lots of stuff in here, click "whole post"!)

> How about listing what dmpk2k or you have done already?

Truth be told, I haven't even looked over his contributions yet. I'm doing some work on Kareha first. He did bandwidth load balancing for Wakaba across several servers, and image file archiving, at least. Plus some proxy checking and other goodies.

> Split threads and posts into separate tables. You're repeating the lasthit and parent column over and over.

Bad idea. Adds a lot of code complexity without adding any new functionality. The current solution is simple and robust.

> Automatic closing and moving of threads that do not get any activity in a certain timeframe (based on average activity frequency of the board)

This is nearly impossible to get right, and I don't think I'm going to try unless someone can think up a reliable algorithm that uses the data that is availble (not much).

> Reintroduction of "Marked for deletion (old)" (it's just handy to have that)

I tried several times, and concluded it wasn't worth the code and database overhead it would take. This feature is relatively easy to implement for Futaba-style post number limited boards (and Futaba implements it really stupidly), but it gets tricky when you have different deletion modes and want to do it right.

> Prune-limit mode that is defined by number of files or size sum of files on a board

Size limit is already implemented. I might add file limit, but I'm not sure it's all that useful, when you already have the size limit.

The rest, I agree with, and I will try to get most of it done. I'm sure there's some more stuff hidden in old threads, though!

8 Name: test 2005-10-12 18:18 ID:Heaven [Del]

What wakaba needs is that SILLY_ANONYMOUS too! :D

9 Name: test 2005-10-12 20:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Reintroduction of "Marked for deletion (old)"

I actually don't like that, and think wakaba should no longer use the futaba style of dropping threads by default. Why not use the least-popular option instead? If a thread is in demand, let it live.

10 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-12 22:19 ID:UAOHJNRy [Del]

>>9
That's an option, you pick which one you want.

11 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 01:41 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>9
I mentioned the option because on highly active boards it's helpful to know which threads will be gone in the next few minutes.

12 Name: test 2005-10-13 02:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>10
Exactly, but considering a lot of people can't make heads from tails in config.pl, how about a saner default?

>>11
That's true, but if least-popular threads are set to be deleted, instead of oldest-first, you don't have to guess.

13 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 02:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

I have always found that it's more difficult than one would think to implement features that will measure "popularity" in a satisfying way that isn't open to abuse in one way or another.

14 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-13 04:30 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

I've been meaning to change some of the defaults away from Futaba-style to saner behaviours. Any suggestions for what to change are welcome. So far:

  • Pruning set to furthest-back instead of oldest.
  • Size limit instead of post number limit, maybe?
  • I'll add thread closing to Kareha, but I was thinking of setting the default behaviour to never permasage or close threads.

15 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 06:01 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Pruning set to furthest-back instead of oldest.

I don't like this one. You just have to continually age a topic (until it hits the permasage treshold) in order for it so survive a long time. Normal users might have good reason to ignore simply it, though...

> Size limit instead of post number limit, maybe?

Sounds good.

> I was thinking of setting the default behaviour to never permasage or close threads.

I guess I don't have a strong opinion on this one. As long as the values will be customizable, I don't really care, I suppose.
Also: I just noticed that "¦" in tripcodes will work correctly but turn into "�U" through the cookie on /soc/ but not on the sandbox.

16 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 06:02 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Also: I just noticed that "¦" in tripcodes will work correctly but turn into "�U" through the cookie on /soc/ but not on the sandbox.

This might have been worded a bit akwardly. What I meant was: Tricodes work fine with ¦ on both the sandbox and /soc/&/sup/, although the latter boards will strangely turn the ¦ into a U? after the reply button was hit.

17 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-13 06:16 ID:ReFmOAs0 [Del]

>>16

Yes, it's throwing Javascript errors for me if I use that character. Gonna look into that some more.

18 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-13 10:11 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>16

What browser are you using? I think I've tracked down the problem, and it's most likely a browser bug. The ancient Firebird (not fox, even) version I tested at work had the same bug (character set issues in the escape() and unescape() functions). It looks like your browser also doesn't follow the spec for how they are supposed to work.

19 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 11:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>18
Firefox 1.0.7, WindowsXP Pro.

20 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-13 12:03 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>19

I can't reproduce this on Firefox 1.0.4 nor Safari on the Mac, but that ancient Firebird had a similar problem (but even worse).

Anyone else? Try post with a | in your name.

21 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-13 12:10 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Also, here's something that would be useful, but is a bit more work than I feel like doing right now:

A simple thumbnailing program, that has no external dependencies and can be compiled to a maximally compatible, statically linked executable, for those who have hosts that don't have any image processing software, and don't allow you to compile your own. Should be able to load GIF, JPEG and PNG images, and produce JPEG thumbnails. Should contain all the source code it needs without linking to external libraries (it's easy enough to just stuff libjpeg, libpng, and zlib into the distro).

If anyone is lacking a programming project, feel free to take up this one! If you do, I can provide some fairly fast and good-looking image scaling code (or just rip it out of mangariini yourself).

22 Name: | 2005-10-13 19:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

> statically linked executable

I have to disagree with this. It should run in perl too.

  • If you're running wakaba, obviously perl must be there
  • Most hosts that library-poor don't provide compilers (or shell) either

23 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-13 22:46 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

The point is to make a portable file, so you do not /have/ to compile it on the host. Statically linked lets you use libraries that the host does not have.

Sure, doing it in perl is an option though.

24 Name: 19 2005-10-14 00:36 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>20
"|" is not "¦"

25 Name: | 2005-10-14 00:37 ID:Heaven [Del]

Anyway, test with |

26 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 00:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

| stays |

27 Name: ¦ 2005-10-14 00:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

Test with ¦

28 Name: !f53YGgdzmM 2005-10-14 00:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

Weird, ¦ now stays ¦.
Testing #¦ now.

29 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 00:40 ID:Heaven [Del]

Funky, works... I am pretty sure the error has something to do with the characters preceeding the "¦" in the unprocessed tripcode. It begins with a "`"

30 Name: !tFiTnDB9dg 2005-10-14 00:56 ID:Heaven [Del]

testing #`¦

31 Name: !nFxirOdZ2I 2005-10-14 00:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

testing #`abcdef¦

32 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 00:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

Well, both >>30 and >>31 didn't change the ¦ into ?U so I am out of ideas what happened...

33 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-14 05:01 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>32

Your browser momentarily regressed to an old bug and then got better? Who can tell?

>>22

Running in pure perl would be ideal, portability-wise, but in practice implementing a JPEG loader and saver from scratch in Perl is both a lot more work than anyone wants to do, and the result will also be too slow.

As was already stated, making a statically linked executable lets you distribute pre-compiled binaries that people can just upload along with the script.

34 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 12:36 ID:hjzD4Li4 [Del]

Tell me more about these pre-compiled binaries. I thought that was impractical...I mean, instruction set differences and so on.

35 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-14 13:11 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Well, a lot of machines run on x86 these days, so that covers a lot of it. And you could pre-compile for a couple of other architectures, and have it pretty much covered. Linux and unixes in general make it ridiculously hard to distribute binaries, as opposed to Windows or Mac OS, but it's still possible with a bit of trickery. Avoiding dynamic libraries helps a lot.

36 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 13:29 ID:8YdETsDh [Del]

I had a number of good old threads from this board bookmarked so I could read them later and wrap my head around their ideas, but then I lost them all in a hard drive crash (strike two, Western Digital!). I also had a number of Japanese BBS's linked from this board bookmarked so I could take a look at their software's functionality and get some other ideas.

Anyway, these are all non-template suggestions:

  • Topical category metadata in new thread creation so only one instance is necessary per site (further fine-grained behavior with PATH_INFO would let you nest one category inside another and view multiple categories of threads at once).
  • Thorough search functionality a-la notchan, using PATH_INFO. This might not be possible without implementing a per-post metadata system though.
  • Elaborating on the above, per-post metadata for "sage" status, for future-proofing in case someone wants to remove the functionality from the e-mail field (onto a checkbox, for example).
  • config.pl parameter for a generic image that takes the place of a deleted image (ie, Hello Kitty)
  • Fine-grained banning options that let you choose whether or not the user is blocked from reading a board, posting to a board, or both. Another parameter defines the duration of his ban ('0' for permaban), and another defines a reason/message displayed when the user tries to access a board.
  • Replace HTML error pages with dialog box equivalents using JavaScript.
  • Kill user deletion. I can't see any case for when it'd have constructive uses.
  • Conversion to mod_perl?

I also have an early idea swimming around in my head about only bumping threads a few positions up, instead of to the top. Another idea is actively bumping threads down, either by a few positions or to the bottom. I'm not exactly sure yet what good it'd be for.

Also...

>* I'll add thread closing to Kareha, but I was thinking of setting the default behaviour to never permasage or close threads.

I think this is ideal for the time, until we have enough statistical data to derive thorough auto-permasage and auto-delete/archive algorithms. Just add the functionality for mods to manually set these statuses, but remove the "permasage at 1000" behavior.

The standalone thumbnailer project is a great idea too. As a suggestion, how about adding functionality to also read and thumbnail document files like TXT, PDF, and DOC?

37 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 13:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oops, forgot to link the first point to my original thread: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1127326007

Oh, and see if dmpk2k is willing to port over the proxy detection and load-balancing/distributed server cluster functions to Kareha. Those would be neat.

38 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 13:56 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Thorough search functionality a-la notchan, using PATH_INFO. This might not be possible without implementing a per-post metadata system though.

I think this not something that needs to be part of the software itself.
Besides, Google mostly provides that function just fine with site:blahblahblah.com blah

Also, what is "user deletion"?

39 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 14:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>38
Sorry, I guess I should've worded that more clearly. I was referring to the ability for users to delete their own posts. It's counter-productive to discussions when a user deletes his own post and a quick replier later quotes or references it. It also encourages users to be lazy with posting, because they can always go back and hide their mistakes.

40 Name: 38 2005-10-14 14:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh okay.

I agree, for Kareha at least.

41 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-14 15:30 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

> metadata

Not sure, that would require a database redesign and I don't want to force people with a current install to do that. Also, it seems something like that would work better for a whole new script, properly designed around the idea.

> config.pl parameter for a generic image that takes the place of a deleted image (ie, Hello Kitty)

Ah, good, been meaning to do, forgot about.

> Fine-grained banning options that let you choose whether or not the user is blocked from reading a board, posting to a board, or both. Another parameter defines the duration of his ban ('0' for permaban), and another defines a reason/message displayed when the user tries to access a board.

None of those seem useful to me, because I'm of the opinion that bans are to prevent abuse, not to punish users.

> Replace HTML error pages with dialog box equivalents using JavaScript.

Would require a bunch of hidden-iframing and such. I'd like to do a complete re-design full of javascript trickery, and this idea would fit better in such a context... That is to say, I'm lazy and the current version is robust, and I'm loathe to go around changing it, since it would introduce new problems.

> Kill user deletion. I can't see any case for when it'd have constructive uses.

On image boards, it has a very definite use - people do fuck up and post in the wrong thread, or create new threads. It's better if they can clean up after themselves. In Kareha, you can already disable deletion.

> Conversion to mod_perl?

As far as I know, it should work in mod_perl already, modulo some prototype bugs. I'll try to get those fixed.

> The standalone thumbnailer project is a great idea too. As a suggestion, how about adding functionality to also read and thumbnail document files like TXT, PDF, and DOC?

That would require a LOT of code, especially when you don't want external dependencies, so it's a bit iffy.

42 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 16:30 ID:Heaven [Del]

Forgot this one:
The general functions of imageboards do not seem to be clear to most people that eventually come around, the influx of total newbies is still big. Many neither know what sage is, how to properly reply to threads, what tripcodes are, etc.
Because of that, I believe it would be good to include a default link at the bottom of the unordered list at the bottom of the new thread form that links to http://wakaba.c3.cx/docs/docs.html#UsersGuide

Relevant:
http://dis.iichan.net/idc/kareha.pl/1128824710/12-

43 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 16:31 ID:Heaven [Del]

PS: I always wanted to say this: The # anchors on the TiddlyWiki automatically scroll me (FF, 1.0.7) just below the actual text box of the entry. Is that a bug, a feature or... ?

44 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-14 16:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

Uh, kind of a bug. I really should fix it, but, lazy.

45 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 19:39 ID:1l2MEdqn [Del]

>>41

>database redesign

You mean requiring SQL software, or just making backwards-incompatible changes that would screw up old threads?

>prevent abuse

Are you only referring to flooding and spamming, or also trolls and flamewars?

Finally, out of curiosity: how much of the functionality in the .js file do you think could be properly implemented into a new or existing perl script?

46 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-14 21:01 ID:Heaven [Del]

> You mean requiring SQL software, or just making backwards-incompatible changes that would screw up old threads?

I mean, needing to alter the table that is already in the database. I don't want to try to do that any more than I have to, as it's pretty hard to get right in a database-independent manner.

> Are you only referring to flooding and spamming, or also trolls and flamewars?

Yes, only flooding and spamming. Trolling and flamewars are not a problem one should use banning to try and solve.

> Finally, out of curiosity: how much of the functionality in the .js file do you think could be properly implemented into a new or existing perl script?

Well, if you serve up dynamic pages, you can do the form-filling on the server, but that's about it. The rest is dynamic stuff.

47 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-14 22:48 ID:1l2MEdqn [Del]

>>46
Well, I haven't checked to see exactly where the ban functionality exists in Kareha, but my idea is something along the lines of: (1) encrypting the offender's IP, (2) writing it to a bans.txt list, and (3) writing a parameter next to the IP specifying the time when the ban should be lifted. Of course, you also need underlying code to check bans.txt every time a user tries to post or reply, and also to remove a ban entry at its specified time.

48 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-15 17:08 ID:Heaven [Del]

I've also had an idea swimming around: an option to only count actual thread bumps in MAX_RES (not "sage" posts). I think it would lead to making each bump more valuable so that people don't do so wastefully and unnecessarily.

49 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-15 19:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>48

That is an interesting idea, and one that deserves some more thought.

50 Name: !WAHa.06x36 2005-10-15 19:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

First thought: It would eliminate the concept of sageing as a protest entirely.

51 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-15 19:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

> It would eliminate the concept of sageing as a protest entirely.

Except that nobody knows what's going on back-end.

I like the idea though.

52 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-15 19:48 ID:Heaven [Del]

On second thought, the whole search idea was pretty poor...but could you implement saging in a way that's independent of any particular post element, and is instead assigned in the individual templates?

53 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 01:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>48-50
First of all, I don't believe it would make bumps more valuable in any way. People bump threads all the time with worthless replies since most don't even know what "sage" is or means or what it is good for. They will simply continue to do this, no matter whether the sage function is changed in this way.

Even at this stage, years after its introduction to a major western userbase, people are still clueless about the main basic functions of image- and discussionboards in the Futaba/0ch style. There are some signs of improvement, but they are rare.
I doubt people would be willing or eager to learn a new, different behaviour at this point in time.

The only real change is what >>50 points out (though I want to mention that even that point is mostly misunderstood: if people want to protest against a certain thread, they should post as many sage posts as it needs to get permasaged (although it's arguably counterproductive, considering the default prune behaviour of imgboards). If threads are still bumpable and trolls find that they have been flamed with a sage, they will just bump it once more). And I don't think that's enough to justify a pretty major function change.

54 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 09:20 ID:Heaven [Del]

>considering the default prune behaviour of imgboards

One of the parameters Kareha uses to determine pruning is MAX_POSTS, so even if you sage a thread under this new condition, you still add to the board's total postcount and speed up the process for pruning that thread, regardless of MAX_RES. The only flew is this assumes pruning is based on thread creation date, not popularity (because someone could easily bump a shitty thread and save it from deletion).

I also agree that enabling this functionality would further make threads vulnerable to intentional bumping by trolls. I was sorta envisioning it being used in a mature community where trolling is minimal and quickly weeded out by regulars.

Here's a new idea: how about trying this in reverse? Only "sage" posts are counted in MAX_RES, in which case saging can again be used either in protest or as a courtesy to others. The only problem is that people can then freely bump threads without consequence.

55 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 10:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>54
I really don't understand what the problem with the current system is. You must be confused. ┐('~`;)┌

56 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 12:26 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>55
I'm not complaining about the current system, just throwing around some new ideas for a change (instead of blindly following whatever new thing comes along on 2ch).

57 Name:   2005-10-16 21:11 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

All right, a beta version with some new features is now installed for this board. It implements a couple of bug fixes, and navigational and 2ch-style improvements suggested in this thread. Try it out, and complain about stuff that doesn't work or doesn't make sense.

I also put in customizable capcodes now. You can define a string of arbitary HTML for the capcode, so you can put whatever kind of fagginess you want in there! Hooray! Try this out by posting with #test.

The good old test thread is still here: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1099697376/

58 Name: anon <-- Testing person 2005-10-16 21:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

huh?

59 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 21:22 ID:Heaven [Del]

I was browsing through some old threads and now they're all gone. :(

60 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-16 21:29 ID:Heaven [Del]

The test thread seems to be broken too.

61 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 02:10 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>58
Fuck you for giving me <blink>

62 Name: test 2005-10-17 04:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

Please put alt tags in image refs, kthnx.

63 Name:   2005-10-17 04:54 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>59-60

Details, please. Everything works for me.

64 Name:   2005-10-17 05:03 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Ah, there was an XHTML error in the cutesy capcode, and of Safari won't handle XHTML correctly and die on errors. Gah. Fixed.

65 Name: 61 2005-10-17 05:14 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>64
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh? You are not the real >>64!!!

66 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 06:43 ID:MhkvoqyU [Del]

/-100 shows the first post two times.

67 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 06:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

The "Entire thread" link on the thread page is missing a "/" at the end.

68 Name: 61 2005-10-17 07:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1099697376/101-101
(First "Next 100" link) does not include >>1 in that thread

There's also some weird bug where the entire browser windowd content goes black, dunno what that is about...

69 Name:   2005-10-17 07:26 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>66-67

Noted and fixed in development version.

70 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-17 07:49 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>69
The sage seems a bit off...

71 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 08:18 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>63
Nevermind, the issues seem to have resolved themselves within the hour of the new version being uploaded.

More stuff:

To more closely resemble the 2ch look, how about prefixing thread title headers in the main board page with a 【position:postcount】thingie?

And as suggested before, the navigation links on the bottom of individual thread pages should include "Previous 100" (ie, all posts before the first post in the URL) and "Next 100" (ie, all posts after the last post in the URL). Of course, this could get screwy if you're using reverse order and out-of-order posts in the URL, so I dunno how well it could be implemented.

The "First 100" link should also be removed from the bottom of individual thread pages, and there should be a link to to thread-list included below the reply box of each previewed thread on the front page.

Bonus:

Change "Del" links to widget buttons.

In order for the CSS selector not to take over the entire header, how about turning it into a drop-down menu? The same could be done with the Admin functions (appearing only after one correctly inputs the password), placing it on the right side of the board and thread title headers (this would also allow admins the convenience of deleting and permasaging threads from the front-page).

and would something like this work (given that all boards share the same root directory)?

>>>>sup/1129153864/1-100
>>>1129153864/1-100

P.S. When you mentioned serving dynamic pages in >>46, were you referring to individual thread pages? As I mentioned before, it'd be nice to make the front page as dynamic and flexible as thread pages when it comes to viewing options (via PATH_INFO).

72 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 08:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh, and please bring back MAX_LINES.

73 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 08:21 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>71
forgot to add that turning the CSS selector and Admin functions into drop-down menus and moving them to the right side of board and thread title headers would remove that top bar entirely on the front page.

74 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 08:29 ID:Heaven [Del]

> To more closely resemble the 2ch look, how about prefixing thread title headers in the main board page with a 【position:postcount】thingie?

2channel does not do this either by default. It can make browsing a bit more convenient (and I suspect dedicated 2channel browsers to insert & read these in some kind of standardized way) but I don't think that's reason enough to impose it on users by default.

> Of course, this could get screwy if you're using reverse order and out-of-order posts in the URL, so I dunno how well it could be implemented.

Personally, I find the reverse order listing, as well as the random order listing, to be a bit silly & useless. The only useful bonus feature here seems to be the comma range seperator, but it seems even in that case there is not much benefit to it (saves 1-3 links in the average case that it is needed, which is rare to begin with).

> The "First 100" link should also be removed from the bottom of individual thread pages, and there should be a link to to thread-list included below the reply box of each previewed thread on the front page.

signed

> In order for the CSS selector not to take over the entire header, how about turning it into a drop-down menu?

This was proposed before (long time ago) and it is hereby also signed.

> and would something like this work (given that all boards share the same root directory)?

That's a tricky bit and I think it was decided against because it would be too much work to properly maintain such a function at the time when 4chan implemented it.

75 Name: 74 2005-10-17 08:41 ID:Heaven [Del]

> 2channel does not do this either by default. It can make browsing a bit more convenient (and I suspect dedicated 2channel browsers to insert & read these in some kind of standardized way) but I don't think that's reason enough to impose it on users by default.

whoops, I misread "postcount" as "posticon". Nevermind!

76 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 08:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>74
The comma range separator is useful for anchoring a certain post range to the first post (ie, "1,-100"), but that's all I can really think of. Still, I appreciate such a degree of flexibility.

77 Name:   2005-10-17 09:10 ID:Heaven [Del]

> To more closely resemble the 2ch look, how about prefixing thread title headers in the main board page with a 【position:postcount】thingie?

I find the "1. Thread title (1000)" format much more readable in the post list. And for the main titles, I don't see any value is putting the position in there. That serves no discernable purpose.

> And as suggested before, the navigation links on the bottom of individual thread pages should include "Previous 100" (ie, all posts before the first post in the URL) and "Next 100" (ie, all posts after the last post in the URL).

They already do, but only if there are enough posts in the thread for this to make sense. Or, try a short range like 23-27 to see it in action.

> The "First 100" link should also be removed from the bottom of individual thread pages, and there should be a link to to thread-list included below the reply box of each previewed thread on the front page.

I've been wondering about the justifications for which navigation links should go where. 2ch has it pretty much worked out, I'm sure, but I don't quite see why there should be a "First 100" at the top but not at the bottom.

> Change "Del" links to widget buttons.

Would be very ugly. Those buttons are big.

> In order for the CSS selector not to take over the entire header, how about turning it into a drop-down menu?

I was meaning to do that from the start, but there was some problem with gettting it right. I forget what exactly.

> The same could be done with the Admin functions (appearing only after one correctly inputs the password), placing it on the right side of the board and thread title headers (this would also allow admins the convenience of deleting and permasaging threads from the front-page).

Squeeks would prefer to have a separate script for admining. I'm not sure which is the best approach here.

> and would something like this work (given that all boards share the same root directory)?
> >>>>sup/1129153864/1-100
> >>>1129153864/1-100

Maybe, but I don't see the value in adding code for this, given that you can just paste the URL in there.

> P.S. When you mentioned serving dynamic pages in >>46, were you referring to individual thread pages? As I mentioned before, it'd be nice to make the front page as dynamic and flexible as thread pages when it comes to viewing options (via PATH_INFO).

The front page gets lots of hits. This would drive up CPU usage something fierce.

> Oh, and please bring back MAX_LINES.

I still don't think it serves any useful purpose.

78 Name:   2005-10-17 09:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>70

?

> Personally, I find the reverse order listing, as well as the random order listing, to be a bit silly & useless.

Well, no, duh, that's the point. They're jokes.

> The only useful bonus feature here seems to be the comma range seperator, but it seems even in that case there is not much benefit to it (saves 1-3 links in the average case that it is needed, which is rare to begin with).

On the contrary, it's very useful when referring someone to a specific discussion in a thread where several discussions are going on, since you can make a link that only shows the relevant posts. Not just on the board but when linking to threads elsewhere.

79 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 09:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>n74,76

It's good for referencing replies, too.

The "always show the first post" behaviour is sort of confusing at first. It seems more intrusive than useful.

80 Name: 79 2005-10-17 09:17 ID:Heaven [Del]

Argh, beaten and >>n isn't even implemented. orz

81 Name:   2005-10-17 09:29 ID:Heaven [Del]

n is implemented, but not for >> yet.

Also, >>1 is, as it is, only added to URLs of the form xx-yy and lxx. 2ch doesn't add >>1 for single-reply URLs, and if you're using commas, I figure you can add >>1 yourself if you want it. I'm not sure if this is the best behaviour, but that's how it works at the moment.

82 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 11:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

> but I don't quite see why there should be a "First 100" at the top but not at the bottom.

Probably to avoid clutter and because of the assumption that if you arrive at the bottom of a page, you can do without the "First 100" link. "First 100" seems to be a navigational aid for beginners who are new to the thread, so it makes sense to only have it at the top.

83 Name:   2005-10-17 12:09 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh yeah, regarding the CSS selector: HTML dropdowns aren't styleable, and will look like shit. I'll look into using some other trickery for that, though.

84 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 12:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

> some other trickery

I smell JavaScript coming in about >>90-120

85 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 12:26 ID:1l2MEdqn [Del]

I'll sign that partition for a separate admin script and XHTML interface (one that includes the banning, board nuking, and spamlist-changing functions in Wakaba).

How about adding flexibility to the DELETE_FIRST option in config.pl, using booleans to define when to keep or remove a thread (including AND/OR/NOT arguments)?

Also, options for both automated permasaging and pruning by postcount, creation date/time, and board position (all configurable in config.pl of course).

Some other layout points:

  • The Title field should go above the Name and Link fields in 2ch mode.
  • 2ch's "new thread" post box is at the bottom of the main page. From every practical standpoint, the current solution in Kareha is a lot more convenient, but you may want to go over that just in case.
  • Futaba now uses "..." instead of ">>>" to prefix repy blocks.

86 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 12:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

> The Title field should go above the Name and Link fields in 2ch mode.

Why should it?

> From every practical standpoint, the current solution in Kareha is a lot more convenient

It's more convenient if you want to start a new thread, but for those who don't it's one more form to have to scroll by.

> Futaba now uses "..." instead of ">>>" to prefix repy blocks.

Any idea why?

87 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 12:36 ID:Heaven [Del]

Also, I'd like to ask exactly how Kareha does automatically generates deletion passwords. I'm guessing it's similar if not identical to how it creates ID session codes with a user's IP.

88 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 12:39 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>86

>Why should it?

Because it's one of the two requirements for creating a new thread, and it's a lot more important to have a well-defined topic than to fill in your name.

>It's more convenient if you want to start a new thread, but for those who don't it's one more form to have to scroll by.

Good point.

>Any idea why?

I dunno. I guess it's just another one of Futaba's countless layout quirks.

89 Name:   2005-10-17 13:10 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

> Also, I'd like to ask exactly how Kareha does automatically generates deletion passwords. I'm guessing it's similar if not identical to how it creates ID session codes with a user's IP.

Actually, no, the Javascript just strings some random numbers and letters together.

> Because it's one of the two requirements for creating a new thread, and it's a lot more important to have a well-defined topic than to fill in your name.

But the body text is even more important, and that goes at the bottom. So I dunno.

>It's more convenient if you want to start a new thread, but for those who don't it's one more form to have to scroll by.

Would it maybe make sense to make a separate thread creation page?

90 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 13:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Would it maybe make sense to make a separate thread creation page?

Considering that the ratio of users who start new threads to those who don't is pretty small on most message boards, I think it does.
A seperate page could also be used to put a more visible disclaimer/set of rules, as a seperate page with a different layout is likely to generate more attention from the user. Stuff that can be put there also wouldn't clutter up the frontpage.
I don't think this is an urgent matter, though.

91 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 13:55 ID:hjzD4Li4 [Del]

Put the Entire thread link on the top of the thread, not the bottom.

92 Name: anon!21anon4H3U 2005-10-17 14:00 ID:Heaven [Del]

This my just be me, but I'd like a link to the entire thread in karaha at the top of threads.

93 Name: anon!21anon4H3U 2005-10-17 14:00 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>91 Ohshi-, time paradox!

94 Name:   2005-10-17 14:06 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

> Put the Entire thread link on the top of the thread, not the bottom.

Well, since the current update has removed almost all links to entire threads, I won't do THAT, but I guess a Last 50 link could be snuck in somewhere... Maybe the thread title should be an l50 link?

95 Name:   2005-10-17 14:09 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Also, I forgot to mention: fusianasan works now! Put it in as your name to test it!

96 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 14:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>89

>But the body text is even more important, and that goes at the bottom. So I dunno.

Yeah, I considered this too. I'm mainly suggesting for the sake of convention.

We definitely don't need a separate page for creating new threads (I get bad memories of Shiichan), mainly because it's inconvenient and requires a whole other page for something that really shouldn't. The fact that it'd be at the bottom of the board page already detracts bad posters with itchy trigger fingers. I think most of us have an "End" key on our keyboards, so we don't really have to scroll all the way down anyway. :) Really, the only issue I have with moving the post box to the bottom is that it ruins my personal visualization of new threads falling on top of the "stack of threads" and replies emerging from below the "stack of replies".

In reference to >>90, there's something I see on every 2ch board that is a lot less prevalent in Western counterparts (barring certain 4-ch boards): a rules/disclaimer block at the top, above the thread-list, with links to a newbie guide, site FAQ, and the like. Yes, it may be an annoyance to veterans, but being at the very top means it's most visible to newbies. That way, we don't get a constant influx of people wondering whether or not they need to fill in the Name and Link fields and what the hell sage and tripcodes are.

97 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 14:14 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>96
forgot to mention that maybe a parameter could be included in config.pl to define an XHTML file for the disclaimer/rules block. It could be used both in 2ch and Futaba (right under the posting area) modes.

98 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 14:26 ID:Heaven [Del]

Also, wouldn't making capcodes even more prevalent be considered A Bad Thing®? If anything, the role of capcodes should be minimized or altogether eradicated, in favor of ninja moderation.

Another question: would FUDGE_BLOCKQUOTES be considered deprecated by now, or are there still CSS styles out there that require it?

99 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 14:50 ID:Heaven [Del]

I've returned from the world of the dead, with old forgotten...suggestions! http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1109447905/l50

>-Scaleable administration (ie, [variable permissions for different passwords])
>-Forcenick and/or force anon for [specified IPs]

100 Name:   2005-10-17 14:52 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>98

Well, that's what I've said from the start, but people keep requesting them.

FUDGE_BLOCKQUOTES is used by the Futaba style, and I guess I just want to keep it there to make it compatible with Futallaby-style CSS files.

101 Name: sjcd-dmzweb-ce8.cisco.com 2005-10-17 15:04 ID:95ZECAi3 [Del]

sup

102 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 15:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Maybe the thread title should be an l50 link?

That's what I've been saying in >>3!

> If anything, the role of capcodes should be minimized or altogether eradicated, in favor of ninja moderation.

It's up to the administration of the site how to use them. I am advocating that if they are used at all (and yes, there are useful instances for this and yes, these are and should be rare) then it would be helpful to be able to differentiate between site owner/admin/supermod/mod/maid/etc

103 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 15:05 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>101
If that is legit, then fusianasan needs to display IPs just like tripcodes: not bold/strong.

104 Name: 103 2005-10-17 15:05 ID:Heaven [Del]

I meant Remote host adress instead of IP.

durr hurr

105 Name:   2005-10-17 15:17 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>103

Noted.

106 Name: qube3.mackey.miyazaki.miyazaki.jp 2005-10-17 15:49 ID:JzjmoL7r [Del]

test

107 Name: dhcp125.engglab.ualberta.ca 2005-10-17 17:28 ID:Heaven [Del]

fusianasan + sage test

108 Name: 34.75.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com 2005-10-17 19:51 ID:Heaven [Del]

I thought fusianasan was supposed to be a mod-only function to weed out bad posters. And what would be the difference between revealing the persons's IP and his ISP's domain?

>>99
I didn't mean to include Forcenick in there, sorry.
Adding to that, however, how about forced sage for specificed IPs? It'd make for a great slogan: Remember kids, tripcodes and aging are privileges, not rights!

109 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 19:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

Hmm, looks like my ISP fails at keeping my IP secret.

110 Name: anon!21anon4H3U 2005-10-17 20:22 ID:Heaven (Image: 1024x768 png, 36 kb) [Del]

src/1129602164301.png: 1024x768, 36 kb

WAHa, WAHa, it's a bug!

Pressed back after creating an error message in karaha (trying to reply to this thread, forgetting to type something in here), refresh does nothing!

111 Name: anon!21anon4H3U 2005-10-17 20:34 ID:Heaven [Del]

Thought of something else: can there be the ability to separately place a title on a board and what the head <title> element says?

Like "Music" for the header but "foolchan - music" for the title in the browser window.

112 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 20:40 ID:UAOHJNRy [Del]

>>108
fusianasan is a voluntary function to show identity without having to memorize a tripcode. Works on all boards. Reveals your IP, of course...

Another feature I'd like is keyboard shortcuts like Wikipedia. Although you'd have to avoid stuff like Alt-D.

113 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-17 21:30 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>112
We already have the ID function, so why do we need such an egregious compromise of anonymity (and security) like voluntarily exposing your own IP?

114 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 03:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>110
Happened to me, too, sometimes it goes black, sometimes it goes white. Screen reappears if you just scroll up a bit but it's still strange.

115 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 03:20 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>108
I don't think that restricting specific users' posting priviliges is useful in any way except restricting them from posting.

>>108,113
"fusianasan" is for when a user wants to prove that he is posting from a certain place (like a school, a company's network or a military base).

>>112
A keyboard shortcut for "reply" in Kareha or "submit" in Wakaba would be nice to have.

116 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-18 03:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

What does "fusianasan" mean?

117 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 04:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>116
Good question! I tried to find out myself but just found some interesting but rather unhelpful links:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/fusianasan
http://info.2ch.net/guide/faq.html#G5
http://ansitu.xrea.jp/guidance/?FAQ1

118 Name:   2005-10-18 04:21 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>116

Apparently it's not Japanese, because it's supposed to be pronounced as an English word. I have no clue, though.

119 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 04:28 ID:Heaven [Del]

I found this:

fusianasan【ふしあなさん】[名・自スル]
2ちゃんねるに書き込みする際に名前欄に「fusianasan」の文字列を入力すると、その書き込みをした人のリモートホストのIPアドレスがさらされるようになっている。
本来は「(固定ハンドル)@fusianasan」などとして、まだキャップを取得していない固定ハンドルが自らIPをさらすことで騙りを防ぐためのシステムである。
が、裏2ちゃん関係のコピペが横行するに至って、一時期うっかりIPをさらしてしまう。
エロな人間が続出し、fusianasan廃止要望まで唱えられるに至った(当然却下されたが)。
IPをさらすことだけによる危険は、そのIPから手元で使用中のコンピュータを一意に特定でき
(ex:グローバルIPによる常時接続)、かつプロキシ・サーバー、ファイヤーウォールなどの防御策を怠っている場合にしか及ばないので、
fusianasanに引っかかったからといって実はそこまで神経質になることもなかったりする。
……過去にIPから仕事中に政府機関から2ちゃんねるにつないで裏2ちゃんに入ろうとしていた愚か者が釣れてさらされたという事例はあるが。
なお、現在では一部の板でデフォルトの名無しさん(名前欄未記入時の名前)が「fusianasanさん」などfusianasanを含む名前となっている場合がある。
また、串の性能を試すために敢えて裏2ちゃんに引っかかっていると思われる強者もちらほら見受けられる。

類義語:mokorikomo
参照:裏2ちゃん、キャップ

120 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 04:30 ID:Heaven [Del]

And this:

だってよ。

231 :ひろゆき ◆3SHRUNYAXA @どうやら管理人 ★:04/02/05 14:13 ID:???
ハンマー投げゲーム機能つけてみました。
名前の欄に『murofusianasan』と書き込めば
【60m】とか【75m】とか記録が出ます。
数値はランダムで0~100くらいまでありますよ。。。
お暇なら遊んでください。

121 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 05:31 ID:Heaven [Del]

I almost forgot this:

For thread-closing, it would be nice if Kareha would post a last post, telling the thread is now over and closed (with some default message that can be customized for each board), akin to the 0ch 1001th post behaviour.

122 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 06:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

About the etyomology of "fusianasan":
http://4-ch.net/nihongo/kareha.pl/1102656968/224-

123 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 07:27 ID:Heaven [Del]

Some semantical nitpicking: "replies" should probably be changed to "posts", since >>1 is not really a reply, which makes >>100 the 99th reply to a thread, thus contradicting the "First 100 replies" thing. Same goes for "Next 100 replies" and "Last 50 replies".

124 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 07:43 ID:9mxxoE2M [Del]

>>123
signed

125 Name:   2005-10-18 07:50 ID:ReFmOAs0 [Del]

>>123

Noted. I've been struggling with that same problem for naming things internally in the code, and obviously it distracted me from noticing the same problem in the GUI.

126 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 08:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

One of the things I did when I modified and restructured the order of functions in post_stuff() was add specific error messages for each non-comment field. Would this be considered superfluous?

127 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 16:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

Getting back to inconsequential nitpicking: I find the "___ image replies omitted" phrase to be a bit redundant, and for one it confuses me as to whether or not those image replies are separate from text-only replies. How about simply calling it "images"?

128 Name:   2005-10-18 17:00 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

All right, new version installed. This one has a bunch of layout changes, and some big changes in the CSS, so you'll need to make sure the CSS is loaded by shift-reloading. Also, fixing all the CSS files was a huge pain in the ass. Have a look around to see if there are any obvious mistakes, but be gentle, because this has given me a headache.

Also, I couldn't be arsed to fix Amber, since it was just a joke in the first place.

129 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 17:18 ID:Heaven [Del]

Damn, I was about to plug >>96 when I saw you uploaded the new version. Thanks for listening WAHa, you're awesome. :D

(Does this work like rules.html in mode_image? Is the board title inserted automatically in templates.pl or is it part of that separate html file?)

Already a few nitpicks though: (1) index.html#menu and index.html#1 links should be automatically inserted to the right of the board title (or below if you're looking at it without CSS), and (2) the "Create new thread" title isn't really necessary, since the widget button already explains its function (like with the reply box).

Unrelated: in 2ch thread lists, position numbers are followed by colons, not periods.

130 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 17:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh, and I apologize for indirectly causing you too much trouble with this change.

131 Name:   2005-10-18 17:35 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>129

That form just looks wrong with no title or clear separator, though. I might put in a title that is not the exact same as the button, though. Any suggestions?

The board title is inserted by template.pl, and rules.html is included after it.

132 Name: c-24-91-21-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net 2005-10-18 17:36 ID:z/kxsMjQ [Del]

test1

133 Name: c-24-91-21-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net 2005-10-18 17:36 ID:z/kxsMjQ [Del]

test2. looks good!

134 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 17:37 ID:EoLJTz7L [Del]

How about a function to replace an inappropriate image with a standard image? (aka HelloKitty.gif)

135 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 18:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>134
Suggested in >>36 and noted.

136 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 18:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

Hey, I just noticed this: where did the admin link go? Or are you working on a separate interface already? :D

137 Name:   2005-10-18 19:23 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Removed it when redesigning the page head, haven't figured out quite what to do about it yet. It needs to be changed, but to what, I'm not yet sure.

138 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 19:55 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>137
I'd advocate going for a separate interface a-la Wakaba, but it might be a bit too much to do for this release.

Also, maybe Easter Eggs like the Eternal September timestamp and others (if they exist) should be documented in config.pl.

Lastly, a question: who here finds enough use in the auto-expanding comment box to justify the annoyances when you click in or out of it?

139 Name:   2005-10-18 20:03 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

You can't document easter eggs! That's crazy talk!

Also, I find it insanely more annoying to write text in five-line tunnel vision than whatever annoyance might be caused by a comment box that expands.

140 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 20:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>137
I also noticed that you removed the CSS selector in individual thread views. Personally, it seems both the Admin options and Style selector are a bit of a hindrance to the overall layout. Don't get me wrong -- I think the drop-in Style capability is fantastic-- but it just doesn't seem to play nice with the current 2ch page design.

The thing is, don't most or all major browsers these days allow users to change CSS styles from within the application itself? I know Firefox does, at least. Maybe the selector isn't really necessary.

141 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-18 20:42 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Also, I couldn't be arsed to fix Amber, since it was just a joke in the first place.

Booo!

> who here finds enough use in the auto-expanding comment box to justify the annoyances when you click in or out of it?

I love that feature. Please don't remove it!

> I think the drop-in Style capability is fantastic-- but it just doesn't seem to play nice with the current 2ch page design.

plz 2 be keeping that feature too

142 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-18 22:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

The Futaba template is missing the "No File" checkbox next to the File field in the Post New Thread area.

143 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 00:56 ID:Heaven [Del]

The "Entire thread" link in the top navigation bar of the thread page is still broken.

144 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 01:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

Thanks for the links at the top. Previously, I had to search for those threads over and over again if I wanted to find them.

145 Name:   2005-10-19 04:10 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>140

So, does that mean you approve of removing the style selector on subpages? I just woke up and I'm confused.

Anyway, Safari doesn't, as far as I know, let you pick stylesheets. And IE obviously doesn't. Also, not even Firefox will actually remember your choice, making the ability completely useless anyway, unless coupled with Javascript on the page to save the setting.

> The Futaba template is missing the "No File" checkbox next to the File field in the Post New Thread area.

That's because Kareha has no "No File" check in the first place, and I'm not sure I want to add code just for that (since it'd have to be optional anyway).

146 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 07:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>145

>does that mean you approve of removing the style selector on subpages?

I was referring to the entire board, but as you later explained, it seems it can never be removed completely. Though removing it from subpages wouldn't be a bad idea I guess.

>Kareha has no "No File" check in the first place

That's what I thought, but then why is it in the Reply pages?

Other: Have you considered multi-page links with intervals of 100 posts at the top of subpages (ie, 1-, 101-, 201-)? Red, bold thread filesizes displayed near the bottom of subpages?

Something else to consider: separating the board description/rules template from the board- or site-wide announcements. Check out http://0ch.mine.nu/test/read.cgi/jikken/1120050851 to see what I mean.

147 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 07:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Red, bold thread filesizes displayed near the bottom of subpages?

I support this, especially if thread-closing by filesize should be implemented.

148 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 08:12 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

Some minor things
1) rename the RENZOKU constants to something that makes sense
2) Have the string to sage and fusianasan defined as a constant in config
3) A specific string for ID:Heaven instead of anything in the email field
4) Cookie preferences such as "Don't use expanding textarea" which leaves it small or big.. or another option for that choice as well; an option to not save Name/Email automatically; anything else that is useful?
5) Seperation of sage et al from the email field to something else...
I think a checkbox works better than putting something in the link field, but that can always be left as working too. It would be nice to know if the name is underlined that it has something other than sage rather than putting the cursor over it and reading the status bar. Strip things from the email field, append (sage) to the Name line?

149 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 08:31 ID:Heaven [Del]

> 3) A specific string for ID:Heaven instead of anything in the email field

Isn't that already an option in the config?

> 5) Seperation of sage et al from the email field to something else...

Strong oppose! I am of the (strong! lol) opinion that the current situation is the one working the best and also that it is widely accepted on almost all similiar board scripts (save for Shiichan and one obscure Japanese discussion board script that I once stumbled upon).

Previous discussion of this can be found here:
http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1102984488/

150 Name:   2005-10-19 08:46 ID:ReFmOAs0 [Del]

> That's what I thought, but then why is it in the Reply pages?

Er, that's a bug I guess.

> 1) rename the RENZOKU constants to something that makes sense

I dunno, they're pretty useless anyway, as has been pointed out, so I don't know if I care enough to change them.

> 2) Have the string to sage and fusianasan defined as a constant in config

I dunno, if different boards use different strings, that will only make for immense confusion.

> 3) A specific string for ID:Heaven instead of anything in the email field

Well, the only string that makes sense is sage, but yes, I should implement the Heaven-on-sage behaviour.

> 4) Cookie preferences such as "Don't use expanding textarea" which leaves it small or big.. or another option for that choice as well; an option to not save Name/Email automatically; anything else that is useful?

Maybe, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort (I'd have to implement a preferences page for it, too).

151 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 08:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

You may want to consider releasing Kareha & Wakaba under some sort of license at this point, just to make sure that the scripts always stay free for people to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_license
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_License_Types#Free_software_licenses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

152 Name: anon!21anon4H3U 2005-10-19 10:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>151 It's all public domain, I believe.

153 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 13:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>152
What does that even mean? Does that mean nobody can come along and claim some sort of authorshop/copyright on Kareha or a slightly modified version of Kareha?

154 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 13:28 ID:1l2MEdqn [Del]

>>148

>5) Seperation of sage et al from the email field to something else...

This is kinda what I had pushed for earlier in >>52. I think that separating the sage (aka, "don't bump"), fusianasan (aka, "show IP"), and ID:Heaven (aka, "no ID") functions from any particular post elements in the main scripts would be ideal for implementing Kareha in systems where inputting a certain string to trigger these functions is not intuitive (ie, every board outside of the 2ch/Futaba family). These trigger strings (S_DONTBUMP, S_SHOWIP, S_NOID) and their assignment to a certain form field input could be instead implemented individually in each template.

>2) Have the string to sage and fusianasan defined as a constant in config
>3) A specific string for ID:Heaven instead of anything in the email field

As I mentioned above, this would better work if they could be modified within each template in the list of string variable definitions.

>4) Cookie preferences such as "Don't use expanding textarea" which leaves it small or big.. or another option for that choice as well; an option to not save Name/Email automatically; anything else that is useful?

I like this one, as far as saving name and e-mail inputs go. I occasionally browse 4-ch at school, and it'd be nice for just an option to clear cookies when you're done and don't want anyone else to use your name, e-mail, and deletion password.

What the hell is RENZOKU?

P.S. >>151 is RMS

155 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 13:42 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>154
Kami! Nice ID.

156 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 13:55 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>154 YOUdqn!

157 Name:   2005-10-19 14:11 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>153

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain

It means anyone can do whatever they want with it. They can't claim copyright, though, since they didn't create it in the first place. They can modify it an claim copyright on their modifications, at least as long as they're significant enough, but that doesn't affect existing works in the public domain.

> This is kinda what I had pushed for earlier in >>52. I think that separating the sage (aka, "don't bump"), fusianasan (aka, "show IP"), and ID:Heaven (aka, "no ID") functions from any particular post elements in the main scripts would be ideal for implementing Kareha in systems where inputting a certain string to trigger these functions is not intuitive (ie, every board outside of the 2ch/Futaba family). These trigger strings (S_DONTBUMP, S_SHOWIP, S_NOID) and their assignment to a certain form field input could be instead implemented individually in each template.

There's no obvious way to do this, since there has to be code that specifically checks a field and takes certain actions long before the template comes into play. It'd take some sort of plugin system to implement it, and I don't think that's quite called for.

Also >>154 is Kami.

158 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 14:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

> They can modify it an claim copyright on their modifications, at least as long as they're significant enough, but that doesn't affect existing works in the public domain.

Devil's advocate: What if they make significant changes you would want to add yourself? before you do? Can they then tell you to stop if they license their work first?

159 Name:   2005-10-19 14:46 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Copyright only applies to the literal code, not to features, ideas, or algorithm. Patents do, to some extent, but that's not the issue here. Since I'm not going to write the exact same code, there's little they can do.

160 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 14:51 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>157
So the functions need to be hardcoded to a post element one way or another? If I wanted to, let's say, create a template for gazo-box or Shiichan (both use checkboxes for sage), I'd need to slightly modify kareha.pl to check that new checkbox input instead of the Link string input?

An interesting limitation. Thanks for explaining.

About permasaging/deleting after a certain thread filesize is reached: would this be the same as a limit on the total number of characters in a thread? Or would we also include WakabaMark formatting, hyperlinks (including navigation), name/date/title headers, reply boxes, and non-Unicode characters in the formula?

>>158
Chances are that most if not all major/fundamental changes made to Kareha's core scripts will clash with the philosophy of most people here (including WAHa), and they won't care for them anyway. There really aren't all that many big-bang end-user features left to be implemented in Kareha before it loses its minimalist charm.

P.S. Reminder for >>85

161 Name: 148 2005-10-19 16:30 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

RENZOKU are the flood detection things... even if they are useless MAX_POSTS_PER_MINUTE makes a lot more sense than RENZOKU2

3) was about a string to trigger ID:Heaven, not a constant for the Heaven part (which is already configurable)

Re: email/link field

Just because it works one way on 2ch/whatever does not mean it is the best way. Having 'fusianasan' as the only way to trigger the effect is just narrow-minded. Functions should have descriptive names to the people using them; should we keep the field names in Japanese because the Japanese have them in Japanese? Having all of the applicable things configurable is something that makes sense, and you can easily have both 'fusianasan' and 'show_ip' that work at the same time. Frankly, the combinations of many things into unrelated fields is a design flaw. What if you want to use a name/trip and fusianasan? What if your email address contains the string 'sage'? What if you want to sage a thread, but have an ID still?
I think the confusion of existing users is worth reducing the learning curve and improving the intuitiveness.

I'm not saying that the default behaviour needs to change, but being able to easily configure the strings used allows for easier localization.

I probably misspelled fusianasan too, why should I have to remember something so foreign?

162 Name:   2005-10-19 16:45 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Well, there are some issues to consider here:

  • Hardly anybody needs to ever use fusianasan. It's a gimmick. Design decisions should not be made around it.
  • The strings may be strange, and combining fields isn't the best design possible, but this is a 0ch clone, after all. If I were designing something from scratch, I'd do things differently, but as it is, people are expecting 0ch behaviour, and it would confuse them if the script worked like 0ch in some ways but not others.
  • I might consider adding additional strings that trigger sage and fusianasan, but I'm not sure what they should be.

In the end, people actually enjoy the 0ch quirkiness. I know I do. I know about designing good interfaces, but there's something fun about an interface that is a little bit quirky, as long as it doesn't get in your way, and these things don't.

163 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 16:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Frankly, the combinations of many things into unrelated fields is a design flaw.

I don't think so, not in these cases. What's the alternative? Having a different field for fusianasan, a new checkbox for sage, etc.? That's just cluttering up the interface.

> What if you want to use a name/trip and fusianasan?

Then just make one post with your name/trip and one with fusianasan and let your ID show up in both.
fusiansan is just intended for rare or special cases anyway, as is the whole subject of identification on anonymous message boards.

> What if your email address contains the string 'sage'?

Huh?

> What if you want to sage a thread, but have an ID still?

Then the board has to be configurated to just do that (it already can).

> why should I have to remember something so foreign?

It's rarely needed anyway. Also, these things are pretty easy to remember. "sage" and "fusianasan" is all there is, really.

164 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 18:08 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>161

>3) was about a string to trigger ID:Heaven, not a constant for the Heaven part (which is already configurable)

That's what I was referring to also in >>154 (S_NOID being the theoretical trigger string for ID:Heaven).

Concerning localization: there are certain compromises with input triggers that must be made in order to maintain interoperability with Japanese users coming from 2ch/Futaba. They're not going to care about a system where "sage" and "fusianasan" (in Roman too I'm guessing, can someone confirm this?) don't work in their respective fields. In effect, 2ch set a standard of usability that we need to follow if we want to build a bridge between both communities.

On the flipside, I think there should also be a secondary set of trigger strings that would be more coherent to Western users and universal to all Western boards. Making them configurable from site to site is really dumb, because it would create an unthinkable usability mess. With Shiichan's death, Kareha stands unrivaled, and setting these strings in stone would ingrain them in the culture like "sage" and "fusianasan" have been in Japan. Thinking very optimistically, if a Western BBS site should grow into something large enough for 2channers to strongly take notice of, they would pick up on these triggers and possibly make their own concessions to implement them in 0ch.

What they should be is yet to be determined. Unfortunately, they'll probably have to be pretty dull in comparison to the witty botanical references and word puns in 2ch and Futaba.

>>163

>I don't think so, not in these cases. What's the alternative? Having a different field for fusianasan, a new checkbox for sage, etc.? That's just cluttering up the interface.

Then why not simply boil it all down to the comment field, with trigger strings for inputting the name, e-mail, sage, ID:Heaven, and fusianasan? You can get a lot more minimal with the current interface.

>Huh?

He meant saging a thread just because a part of the actual e-mail address contains the word "sage."

165 Name: Shii the Metal Idol 2005-10-19 18:13 ID:z/kxsMjQ [Del]

> Huh?

You know, like johathan_strange@sagemail.com.

Shiichan 2000 let you enter "down" to sage and "showip" for fusianasan, but it was mainly just a curiosity and was not used. There's no one English word that does the job of the pseudo-Japanese "sage". Better to have a tick-box and explain to people why it is useful. Or an option for it.

> Then the board has to be configurated to just do that (it already can).

No, 148 is referring to a user-end problem, not a server-end problem.

166 Name: 148,161 2005-10-19 18:40 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

>>> In the end, people actually enjoy the 0ch quirkiness. I know I do. I know about designing good interfaces, but there's something fun about an interface that is a little bit quirky, as long as it doesn't get in your way, and these things don't.

It does get in your way though, I enumerated cases where this is the case (albeit edge cases).

>>>Then just make one post with your name/trip and one with fusianasan and let your ID show up in both.

fusiansan is just intended for rare or special cases anyway, as is the whole subject of identification on anonymous message boards.

You still end up with no way to link the fusianasan post with the name/trip one without IDs enabled (unless the ID method is known and no secret data is used).

>>>It's rarely needed anyway. Also, these things are pretty easy to remember. "sage" and "fusianasan" is all there is, really.

You spelled it fusiansan once.

Also, how is Kahera unrivaled when there are still large sites that are not running it? Shiichan is still on world4ch, Thorn on parts of wakachan for example.

http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1127713568/l50 is also semi-relevant

167 Name:   2005-10-19 18:55 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

Oh:

> Getting back to inconsequential nitpicking: I find the "___ image replies omitted" phrase to be a bit redundant, and for one it confuses me as to whether or not those image replies are separate from text-only replies. How about simply calling it "images"?

Yes, that's a great idea, which is why I've always done just that. You're thinking of 4chan.

168 Name:   2005-10-19 19:00 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

> (albeit edge cases)

Which is the crux of the matter - it mostly doesn't matter to the vast majority of users.

> You still end up with no way to link the fusianasan post with the name/trip one without IDs enabled (unless the ID method is known and no secret data is used).

You can use fusianasan with a tripcode, at least on Kareha. I suspect you can on 0ch too, but I haven't checked.

169 Name:   2005-10-19 19:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

How come this is now the by far biggest thread on this board?

Maybe it's because I'm posting useless replies like this one!

170 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-19 19:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>165

>There's no one English word that does the job of the pseudo-Japanese "sage".

How about "dontbump" or "nobump"? Using "down" is pretty misleading, since sage doesn't bump a thread up nor down; it just stays in its place until a thread below is bumped.

>>167 orz

In reference WAHa's post in http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1127713568/l50

>It's been suggested to change the no-ID-on-email to no-ID-on-sage

That sounds good to me.

171 Name: Shii the Metal Idol 2005-10-19 20:51 ID:z/kxsMjQ [Del]

>>170
But my good man, sage means down.

> Also, how is Kahera unrivaled when there are still large sites that are not running it? Shiichan is still on world4ch, Thorn on parts of wakachan for example.

These are temporary problems because the webmasters of both sites are too stubborn to upgrade.

172 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 01:54 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Better to have a tick-box and explain to people why it is useful. Or an option for it.

Yes, an option. Because I think a tickbox is horrible.

This is a widely used system. There is a very low learning curve here. sage = does not bump thread when replying, that's all there is to know. People can then figure out why it is useful on their own.

And personally, I think sageing should be encouraged more (since the perceptions on it have been pretty much ruined by 4chan). So it helps that it stays in the E-Mail/Link field instead of being purged from the tickbox each time like Shiichan does (interestingly, 4chan's Futallaby does also purge "sage" if written in all minor letters).

173 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 01:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

> He meant saging a thread just because a part of the actual e-mail address contains the word "sage."
> You know, like johathan_strange@sagemail.com.

Well, then you are out of luck, aren't you? So you want to enter your E-Mail but cannot because then the post wouldn't bump then? Solution: Write it in the comment field, problem fixed.
There is no reason to change well-known keywords for this or even turn this into a frustratingly unconvenient tickbox/checkbox.

174 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 02:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Making them configurable from site to site is really dumb, because it would create an unthinkable usability mess.

Why? Let people figure out things themselves, if they are so keen on changing their keywords. They can get together in their own webmaster threads and figure this out. I don't see why this should be solved here.
Of course I think this is a dumb idea in the first place. Nobody needs to know what fusianasan and sage are. Write a FAQ with two sentences about it and/or let your oldtime users tell newbies. Two frickin' words, and you people talk about it as if it were something like making up a new system of romanization!

> Then why not simply boil it all down to the comment field, with trigger strings for inputting the name, e-mail, sage, ID:Heaven, and fusianasan? You can get a lot more minimal with the current interface.

That's a bit too much. You want to talk about sage and fusianasan in the comment field, not trigger it with it.
I suspect you are joking here, though. Design is about what you can take away and still remain optimal conveniency/efficiency on the user part, not about taking as much away as you are technically capable of.

175 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 02:07 ID:Heaven [Del]

> You still end up with no way to link the fusianasan post with the name/trip one without IDs enabled (unless the ID method is known and no secret data is used).

You'd figure that people who know what fusianasan is will also know how to trigger IDs.

> You spelled it fusiansan once.

So I misspelled one word once.

Sue me!

> Also, how is Kahera unrivaled when there are still large sites that are not running it? Shiichan is still on world4ch, Thorn on parts of wakachan for example.

Neither world4ch nor Pichan are by any means "large". Also, yes, as Shii said, their webmasters are stubborn.

176 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 02:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

PS: I just tested fusianasan + tripcode on 2ch, it works fine.

177 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-20 02:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

What does Thorn have to do with Kareha? Thorn's counterpart is Wakaba.

Anyway, the version of Shiichan on world4ch is bust. It's not a case of feature versus feature here, Shiichan simply doesn't work. It's not worth comparing until it doesn't break regularly.

If Shii were still working on it might be different, but Shiichan is effectively a dead project which incidentally has a closed and broken version working on world4ch.

178 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 06:26 ID:Heaven [Del]

> and/or let your oldtime users tell newbies.

Like so? http://wakaba.c3.cx/soc/kareha.pl/1124991549/7

179 Post deleted by user.

180 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 06:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>178
There will always be pranksters around. This is probably a good example on what matters to trust tripcoders more than anonymous contributors.

Trivia: Here is a list of 2ch kopipe to fool people into using fusianasan:
http://ansitu.xrea.jp/guidance/?fusianasan

181 Name:   2005-10-20 06:39 ID:ReFmOAs0 [Del]

>>180

The one with encoded Javascript that makes you post with fusianasan is cute.

182 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 09:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>174

>Let people figure out things themselves, if they are so keen on changing their keywords.

If you really want to use your own custom trigger strings, you can easily search kareha.pl for instances where "sage" and "fusianasan" are used in that context and either replace them with those custom strings or append them as secondary strings. It's not something that warrants additional config.pl parameters.

183 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 09:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>182
That's not what I meant. What I meant was: If people want to change keywords to something, let them figure out at appropriate places what this something should be. Whether it should be "down", "stay_down" or "stay_put" is not really a discussion belongs here, not at this point anyway.

184 Name:   2005-10-20 09:45 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>183

No, that's just plain wrong. It is very much the job of the programmer to decide on such issues, and make sure they work consistently across boards.

185 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 09:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>184
If people are going to decide to use custom names for paramaters, then there isn't much you can do about it anyway, or is there?

186 Name:   2005-10-20 10:07 ID:Heaven [Del]

No, but that's not the point.

187 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 10:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

Another topic: since dynamic pages eat up CPU in order to rebuild pages according to URL parameters, what would be the likelihood of the current dynamic thread subpages having a significantly adverse effect in this aspect if a board were to grow to 2ch-sized proportions? Should there be a consideration to make these pages as static as the front page?

Also, let's put out a partition to kill secure tripcodes (unless they originated from 0ch/Futaba) and captcha (until we find a way to implement similar functionality without requiring it in the form of a GIF/PNG image), and add functionality for multiple uploads in one post.

And is there any practical way that Kareha can be modified to run multiple (even nested) boards in a single installation?

188 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 11:10 ID:Heaven [Del]

> partition to kill secure tripcodes

signed

> add functionality for multiple uploads in one post.

I think this was decided against before.

189 Name:   2005-10-20 11:10 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Another topic: since dynamic pages eat up CPU in order to rebuild pages according to URL parameters, what would be the likelihood of the current dynamic thread subpages having a significantly adverse effect in this aspect if a board were to grow to 2ch-sized proportions?

The effect would be miniscule in comparison to the huge increase in bandwidth that would result from sending the entire static thread pages.

The "entire thread" link can easily be changes to link to the files in /res/ instead of going through the script, but that would make it somewhat less convenient when you want to consturct custom URLs, so I haven't done it.

> Also, let's put out a partition to kill secure tripcodes (unless they originated from 0ch/Futaba)

Why? Even if 0ch or Futaba implemented secure tripcodes, you wouldn't get the same secure tripcode there as on another board. That's the nature of the security.

> captcha (until we find a way to implement similar functionality without requiring it in the form of a GIF/PNG image)

That's even more non-sensical. Nobody on the entire internet has figured out a reasonable way to implement captcha except by using images, and the only boards that use them are image boards where you have to load images anyway. And finally, they aren't just there to annoy you, people do actually try to flood boards, and they are stopped by the captcha.

> And is there any practical way that Kareha can be modified to run multiple (even nested) boards in a single installation?

Not without doing a lot of changes throughout the code, and not without breaking current installations.

190 Name:   2005-10-20 11:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

Also, for multiple board installations, use symlinks to allow you to keep just one installation of the main code files.

191 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 11:40 ID:Heaven [Del]

> the only boards that use them are image boards where you have to load images anyway.

Correction: http://www.akatsukimanga.com/kareha/

192 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 11:52 ID:iWMGI/HY [Del]

> The "entire thread" link can easily be changes to link to the files in /res/ instead of going through the script, but that would make it somewhat less convenient when you want to consturct custom URLs, so I haven't done it.

A better solution would be to use mod_rewrite to rewrite all /kareha.pl/$number/ links to /res/$number.html
It schould be a lot faster then running the script and the links stay the same.

193 Name: 148,161,166 2005-10-20 12:04 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

>>Well, then you are out of luck, aren't you? So you want to enter your E-Mail but cannot because then the post wouldn't bump then? Solution: Write it in the comment field, problem fixed.

There is no reason to change well-known keywords for this or even turn this into a frustratingly unconvenient tickbox/checkbox.
Having a specific trigger to trigger ID would also work.

>discussion of only one comment box, then you couldn't talk about sage/fusianasan/whatever

You could only trigger the functions in a specific format, say

:link-sage
:name-blah#faggot
lol comment

I do not believe this was an actual request, but it is obviously possible and usable. Another way would be escaping keywords that you want to post.

> partition to kill secure tripcodes

Why? If you are going to get rid of secure tripcodes you should get rid of tripcodes by the same reasons. On another note, why have I seen partition instead of petition multiple times?

>So I misspelled one word once. Sue me!

My point was that it is unnesessarily obtuse, not nit-picking that you misspelled it.

>This is a widely used system. There is a very low learning curve here. sage = does not bump thread when replying, that's all there is to know. People can then figure out why it is useful on their own.

You would think there is a low learning curve, but that is not really the case. For example, on an imageboard, what effect do you have making a sage post (with no real content) with prune oldest and a permasage limit? What about prune oldest with a permasage limit that excludes sage replies?

>trigger replacements

I'm not sure what to replace sage with, if anything. Down certainly doesn't describe it (to me it implies the reverse of age, which is not the case). don't_bump or dont_bump? show_host or show_ip works for fusianasan imo... show_ID to trigger ID?

194 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 12:12 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Why?

I am not the user who initiated this parition but I find them to be triggered far too often.

> On another note, why have I seen partition instead of petition multiple times?

An old imageboard meme. Don't ask!

195 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 12:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>193

> For example,

Different boards having different settings does not at all touch the question whether the learning curve of sage="does not bump thread" is low or not. It's up to the admins to tell their users what a particular modification on their board implies for "sage" - hopefully in a more responsible way than on 4chan.

196 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 12:51 ID:tlSRz7E3 [Del]

>>189

>The effect would be miniscule in comparison to the huge increase in bandwidth that would result from sending the entire static thread pages.

How about a config.pl parameter to split up thread subpages into X posts per page? The navigation links already use 100 posts per page for practically everything except "Last 50 posts".

Hmm, I just remembered: >> links would not work at all with static pages. Not good.

>Why? Even if 0ch or Futaba implemented secure tripcodes, you wouldn't get the same secure tripcode there as on another board. That's the nature of the security.

Right, I guess it was dumb to mention 0ch/Futaba in the first place. The point is, as you said yourself, tripcodes are a gimmick, and if someone wants to maintain a persistent identity across multiple boards and sites (ie, everyone here with a tripcode), they have no choice but to use ordinary tripcodes. Secure tripcodes are useless because they limit your identity to a single board, supposing each board/site's cipher key is different -- which it should be, since that's the point of having a secure tripcode in the first place. No one should be so paranoid about a tripcode that they'd need to have a different one per board/site.

>Not without doing a lot of changes throughout the code, and not without breaking current installations.

Shouldn't we sacrifice some backwards compatibility for a more robust and scalable design? It might even be possible to provide an upgrade.pl for old threads.

>>193

>You could only trigger the functions in a specific format, say...

That's a cool idea, though for now it would have to be left alone if we want to keep Kareha compatible with 2ch/Futaba conventions.

>>195
Exactly. The methods and the effects of saging a thread are separate subjects.

P.S. I recently discovered "rXX-XX" for threads in /soc/. How exactly does this work? From the sound of it, it's supposed to randomize the post order, but when I hit refresh I get the same order.

197 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 14:02 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>196
Actually, a solution to >> links with static pages is to simply make them reference a certain point on a certain page number for that thread (ie, http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/1129153864/index2.html#197).

198 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 16:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

> but when I hit refresh I get the same order.

Browser cache. Try shift-refresh.

It doesn't take a specific range, just >>r30 for 30 random posts.

199 Name:   2005-10-20 18:25 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Right, I guess it was dumb to mention 0ch/Futaba in the first place. The point is, as you said yourself, tripcodes are a gimmick, and if someone wants to maintain a persistent identity across multiple boards and sites (ie, everyone here with a tripcode), they have no choice but to use ordinary tripcodes. Secure tripcodes are useless because they limit your identity to a single board, supposing each board/site's cipher key is different -- which it should be, since that's the point of having a secure tripcode in the first place. No one should be so paranoid about a tripcode that they'd need to have a different one per board/site.

True, they're of limited usefulness, but people like admins might prefer to use them. And there are certain cases were you might use them temporarily for various purposes. I wrote the code already, so I might as well leave it in. It has some uses at least.

> Shouldn't we sacrifice some backwards compatibility for a more robust and scalable design? It might even be possible to provide an upgrade.pl for old threads.

I think I'm too lazy to do it. It's kind of hairy. Besides, as I said, you can remove a lot of the drawbacks of seprate installations by using symlinks.

200 Name:   2005-10-20 18:28 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>191

Thanks for reminding me that I need to fix the CSS for the captcha!

201 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 18:28 ID:Heaven [Del]

> people like admins might prefer to use them

but they have capcodes now...

202 Name:   2005-10-20 19:06 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>201

Yeah, no, maybe. Using secure trips for capcodes also adds extra protections against accidentially misspellingyour capcode and leaving it open to attack.

203 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-20 20:58 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>177

> It's not worth comparing until it doesn't break regularly.

The only problem with it is that it doesn't do paranoid file writes. The fact that the entire server occasionally breaks isn't related to how broken the script itself is.

204 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E 2005-10-20 22:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

> the entire server occasionally breaks

Occasionally?

Well, that might be it, except that on world4ch at least one board breaks every week, if not more. Incidentally, as of this writing, 4chan's /dis/ and /sug/ are also toast (third time this month?).

As it is, I can't recall ever seeing kareha break.

205 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 03:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

If we must discuss Shiichan's bug (which I believe we don't): I like the one where it sometimes turns an existing thread at the end of the All thread list into a thread with no subject, creation date set as 31 Dec 1969: 19:00 and then set to -1 posts (!) - and when you post in it, you 0GET and your IP appears as the subject.

It's a brilliant, better than fusianasan! Try it out: http://dis.4chan.org/read.php/dis/1121735647/

206 Name: 205 2005-10-21 03:39 ID:Heaven [Del]

Congratulations to 82.94.251.206!
So the subject line will look like this:
[username]<><>[unix timestamp from now]<>[content of comment box]<> <>[IP]

207 Name: 205 2005-10-21 03:40 ID:Heaven [Del]

From here on, this thread is about Kareha again:

208 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 13:46 ID:cRmds2wO [Del]

Recapping, here are the things I'd like to see in the final release:

  • better configuration of date and time (with optional timezone offsets), parsing certain characters for individual elements (ie, yyyy/MM/dd(D) hh:mm:ss -5:00:00) and also accepting numerical inputs for fixed dates and times (Eternal September)
  • config.pl parameter to permasage after a certain thread filesize/total number of characters has been reached
  • change the no-ID-on-email option to no-ID-on-sage
  • no EMAIL_ID parameter (most if not everyone uses "Heaven" anyway, and if they really want to change it they can easily find the string in kareha.pl)

Some nitpicky template adjustments to mode_message in order to more closely resemble 0ch (see http://f17.aaa.livedoor.jp/~zerotest/jikken and http://0ch.mine.nu/jikken):

  • multi-page links (1-, 101-, 201-, etc) at the top of subpages
  • red, bold thread filesize indicator near the bottom of subpages
  • "read all later posts" link just below the filesize indicator
  • non-bolded post numbers
  • colons before dates
  • colons before names (thread subpages only)
  • colons after thread position number in main page thread list
  • smaller and (at least for Pseud0ch) black and bolded title in "Create new thread" box

209 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 14:16 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

More information on the all threads page, date of the last post? file size?

A quote button that puts >>n and puts the post prefixed by > in the reply box

Different secret strings for different functions (e.g. one for ID generation and one for secure tripcodes)

210 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 14:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

A trigger for turning wakabamark off and one for forcing a monospace font

211 Name:   2005-10-21 14:41 ID:Heaven [Del]

> change the no-ID-on-email option to no-ID-on-sage
> multi-page links (1-, 101-, 201-, etc) at the top of subpages

Already implemented.

> config.pl parameter to permasage after a certain thread filesize/total number of characters has been reached

Isn't this essentially the same as saying "Please don't talk so much?"

> no EMAIL_ID parameter (most if not everyone uses "Heaven" anyway, and if they really want to change it they can easily find the string in kareha.pl)

The choice of this string is so weird and arbitary, I feel better keeping it as an option so that I can disclaim responsibility!

> better configuration of date and time (with optional timezone offsets), parsing certain characters for individual elements (ie, yyyy/MM/dd(D) hh:mm:ss -5:00:00) and also accepting numerical inputs for fixed dates and times (Eternal September)
> red, bold thread filesize indicator near the bottom of subpages

Pretty useless. I'd rather not waste work and code on something that has no actual use. (Timezone offsets would be useful, but this is such an incredibly hairy issue to get right, I don't want to even try. Just handling Daylight Savings Time would make my head explode, and I can't just leave it out, because then either the admin has to keep changing the offset, or the time will be wrong half the year anyway.)

> non-bolded post numbers
> colons before dates
> colons before names (thread subpages only)

what

212 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 14:44 ID:1Jq07X/h [Del]

>>210

monospace font? like this?

213 Name:   2005-10-21 14:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

> More information on the all threads page, date of the last post? file size?

That might be somewhat useful, I suppose. I'll have a look at it.

> A quote button that puts >>n and puts the post prefixed by > in the reply box

There's already a way to put in >>n. However, quoting an entire post is seldom something you want to do anyway, so I don't think that's worth cluttering up the page with a million buttons for.

> Different secret strings for different functions (e.g. one for ID generation and one for secure tripcodes)

Most admins probably don't get point of the secret string anyway, and asking them to put in several is just too annoying. In retrospect, I'd like to add a second layer of hashing to these, but that'd mean breaking secure trips AGAIN.

> A trigger for turning wakabamark off and one for forcing a monospace font

I've been trying to work out a more elegant solution for this.

214 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 15:00 ID:Heaven [Del]

>> config.pl parameter to permasage after a certain thread filesize/total number of characters has been reached
> Isn't this essentially the same as saying "Please don't talk so much?"

I am not >>208 but the first who suggested this here (long ago). I think it may be vital for future, actually popular boards to limit the filesize of a thread so that the board won't get hammered by repeated loads of whole threads without having to limit the size of posts themselves something fierce.

215 Name: 214 2005-10-21 15:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

Whoops, sorry. I read "close" instead of "permasage".
Permasage on filesize seems pretty silly, yes.

216 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 15:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>208

> multi-page links (1-, 101-, 201-, etc) at the top of subpages

This is just implemented on some 0ch types. 2channel doesn't use it (at least on no board that I know of).

217 Name: 214 2005-10-21 15:06 ID:Heaven [Del]

> More information on the all threads page [...] file size?

If (optional) closing on filesize should be implemented, this would probably be a good idea.

218 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 15:22 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>209

>> More information on the all threads page, date of the last post? file size?

Well, I had already proposed the filesize indicator in >>208, but optimally I would actually prefer that subback resemble the one in 0ch (ie, same as the main page thread list, but without CSS).

And single-post links don't include the thread's first post anyway, so there's no need for >>n. Quoting an entire post is not wise either.

>>211

>Isn't this essentially the same as saying "Please don't talk so much?"

In a sense, yes. Just like the postcount limit could be interpreted as "Please don't talk so long".

>what

main page -- 161 Name:◆WAHa.06x36:2005/10/21(Fri) 14:44 ID:Heaven
subpage -- 4 :◆WAHa.06x36:2005/10/21 14:44 ID:Heaven

Question: does Kareha have a 1001th post message like "Name: 1001:Over 1000 Thread" for when a thread exceeds its postcount limit?

219 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 15:25 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>216
I remember at least one or two boards on 2ch that used it, though I can't remember which (moon language and such, you see).

I apologize for the dumb question I made at the end of >>218. I forgot that Kareha permasages (not closes) a thread after the limit is exceeded, so there's no need for a hypothetical 1001th post anyway! orz

220 Name:   2005-10-21 15:45 ID:Heaven [Del]

Kareha can't use different layouts for posts on different pages, except by CSS trickery. I could add the second colon, though.

Also, I've implemented optional thread closing now, but there's no extra post. That would just be a total mess to implement, and would make re-opening threads annoying, if such a feature was requested. It replaces the posting form with a notice that the thread has been closed, instead.

221 Name:   2005-10-21 15:48 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>214

Point taken. I'll add it as an autoclose option.

222 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 16:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>220
I meant only using the extra post for autoclose situations where the thread has exceeded the defined postcount limit in config.pl. As for the implementation, couldn't you just have Kareha use post_stuff() and (somehow) replace the timestamp with "Over XXXX Thread"?

223 Name: 214 2005-10-21 16:41 ID:Heaven [Del]

I want a 1001th post! :(

224 Name:   2005-10-21 16:59 ID:Heaven [Del]

A 1001th post would be a bother.

225 Name: 214 2005-10-21 17:05 ID:Heaven [Del]

Okay then, for starters, how about the closing message to exactly look like a post (although it's sad it won't be accesable with >>1001)?

226 Name:   2005-10-21 17:12 ID:Heaven [Del]

That would be a bother too.

227 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 17:21 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>226
(´・ω・`)

228 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 17:35 ID:13VMAtd0 [Del]

   ∧∧
  (  ・ω・)    It's late
  _| ⊃/(___
/ └-(____/

   ∧∧
  ( ・ω・ )    Good night!
  _| ⊃/(___
/ └-(____/

  <⌒/ヽ-、___
/<_/____/
 ̄ ̄

229 Name: Shii the Metal Idol 2005-10-21 18:13 ID:z/kxsMjQ [Del]

0ch-PHP had this nifty feature where if it was a certain "high bandwidth" time of day, then you couldn't view the whole thread.

Hm... that is kind of useless on a worldwide forum, huh?

But there should still be an option to keep people from viewing more than 100-200 posts, as an emergency way of saving bandwidth.

230 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 18:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

I think it'd be a better idea to have some kind of load-balancing/distributed server cluster approach, like what dmpk2k was working on for Wakaba.

231 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 21:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

How about adding a link to 2ch in footer.html called "2ch mode"?

232 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 21:22 ID:OTpdVASB [Del]

>>231 What would it do?

233 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 22:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>232
Nothing! But since mode_image's footer.html includes a link to Futaba called "Futaba mode," I think mode_message should have the same.

234 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 22:20 ID:Heaven [Del]

requesting features:

  • >>n and >>q and anything else that can be used in the url.
  • a "catalog" page for wakaba, like some futaba boards have.

235 Post deleted by user.

236 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 22:34 ID:Heaven [Del]

In mode_image: shouldn't the board title be in <h1>, and the post headers in <h2>?

237 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 22:39 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>236
I mean, thread titles in <h2> and post headers in <h3>.

238 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-21 23:15 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

>Most admins probably don't get point of the secret string anyway, and asking them to put in several is just too annoying. In retrospect, I'd like to add a second layer of hashing to these, but that'd mean breaking secure trips AGAIN.

You could take the route that MrVB (I think?) did and generate the strings on first run? openssl, /dev/random, perl's random as last resort. In almost every case you are going to get a better random string than most people will supply, and if they want to change it they can. Or only have them generated if they are not supplied.

Honestly, when people care so much about anonymity they can put up with the changes required to ensure it.

239 Name:   2005-10-22 06:31 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>236

mode_image copies the Futaba/Futallaby HTML style and uses the same CSS, so yeah, it should be, and no, it won't be.

>>238

This would need writing to yet another file, and it also makes it less obvious how to get the same secret on several boards.

240 Name: 214 2005-10-22 09:22 ID:Heaven [Del]

Let's get to 1000 by "I want a pretty pony" only! ヽ(´ー`)ノ

241 Post deleted by user.

242 Name:   2005-10-22 10:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

Here's a fun little game for you all!

I'm looking into adding support for using HTML markup in addition to WakabaMark, but since most boards use XHTML, I can't just let through any old HTML, and most people can't write well-formed XHTML. Also, I don't want any cross-site scripting going on. So I've tried to write a piece of code that takes any horribly written piece of HTML, sanitizes it by removing all tags and attributes that are not an approved list, checks the attribute values, and turns it into well-formed XML.

Now I'd like to see if anyone can break this. The objective is to get some Javascript onto the page, or making the page break in Firefox (or any other browser that parses XML strictly), or otherwise causing trouble. Have at it!

http://wakaba.c3.cx/test/sanitize.pl

243 Name:   2005-10-22 10:54 ID:Heaven [Del]

If you want to have a look at what the code actually does to dig out flaws, here is the current version:

sub sanitize_html($%)
{
my ($html,%tags)=@_;
my (@stack,$clean);
my $entity_re=qr/&(?!\#[0-9]+;|\#x[0-9a-fA-F]+;|amp;)/;

while($html=~/(?:([^<]+)|<([^<>]*)>?)/g)
{
my ($text,$tag)=($1,$2);

if($text)
{
$text=~s/$entity_re/&amp;/g;
$text=~s/>/&gt;/g;
$clean.=$text;
}
else
{
if($tag=~m!^\s*(/?)\s*([a-z0-9_:\-\.]+)(?:\s+(.*?)|)\s*(/?)\s*$!si)
{
my ($closing,$name,$args,$implicit)=($1,lc($2),$3,$4);

if($tags{$name})
{
if($closing)
{
if(grep { $_ eq $name } @stack)
{
my $entry;

do {
$entry=pop @stack;
$clean.="</$entry>";
} until $entry eq $name;
}
}
else
{
my %args;

$args=~s/\s/ /sg;

while($args=~/([a-z0-9_:\-\.]+)(?:\s*=\s*(?:'([^']*?)'|"([^"]*?)"|['"]?([^'" ]*))|)/gi)
{
my ($arg,$value)=(lc($1),defined($2)?$2:defined($3)?$3:$4);
$value=$arg unless defined($value);

my $type=$tags{$name}{args}{$arg};

if($type)
{
my $passes=1;

if($type=~/url/i) { $passes=0 unless $value=~/(?:^$protocol_re:|^[^:]+$)/ }
if($type=~/number/i) { $passes=0 unless $value=~/^[0-9]+$/ }

if($passes)
{
$value=~s/$entity_re/&amp;/g;

if($value=~/"/) { $value="'$value'" }
else { $value="\"$value\"" }

$args{$arg}=$value;
}
}
}

my $cleanargs=join " ",map { "$_=$args{$_}" } keys %args;

$implicit="/" if($tags{$name}{empty});

push @stack,$name unless $implicit;

$clean.="<$name";
$clean.=" $cleanargs" if $cleanargs;
$clean.=" $implicit" if $implicit;
$clean.=">";
}
}
}
}
}

my $entry;
while($entry=pop @stack) { $clean.="</$entry>" }

return $clean;
}

244 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 10:55 ID:Heaven [Del]

I don't know if this is a bug or not, but could you change the Futaba template so that hovering over/clicking on a post header doesn't count as doing the same to the deletion checkbox next to it? Same goes for the "[File Only]" area at the bottom with its checkbox.

245 Name:   2005-10-22 10:56 ID:Heaven [Del]

Wow, >>243 sure looks like shit in Safari. What the hell? Looks right in Firefox, though.

246 Name:   2005-10-22 10:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>244

Er, that's a feature, not a bug. That's how most GUIs act.

247 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 12:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

Why would there be any use in writing actual HTML in posts? Seems to me like it's just inviting abuse.

248 Name: 214 2005-10-22 12:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

It's also more markup when even the existing one isn't working as well as it should.

249 Name:   2005-10-22 12:43 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>247

Well, you have your chance to try and abuse it over on the test page. Although the list of allowed tags there doesn't exactly match what would be allowed here.

Also, the point is to make the type of markup selectable, so you can pick WakabaMark or HTML or none at all.

250 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 12:58 ID:tsGarR30 [Del]

>>249 Then the default should be no markup.

251 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 13:00 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>249
<a href> opens up the possibility of using inline links, and img tags allow bandwidth leeching from other sites (plus the fact that the image itself may be unsanitary).

252 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 13:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

Plus if you were to allow those tags in HTML, you should do the same for WakabaMark (which actually takes its cue from Markdown, so I don't see why it has a different name).

253 Name:   2005-10-22 13:12 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>251

Again, the list of tags allowed on that page don't correspond to what would be allowed in Kareha. Of course <img> tags wouldn't be allowed, for instance. This is just for testing the actual cleanup engine.

254 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 13:17 ID:Heaven [Del]

Partition for renaming "WakabaMark" to "WAHaMARk"!

255 Name:   2005-10-22 13:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>254

You'd be destroying the DUMB PUN!

256 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 13:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>255
By replacing it with AN EVEN DUMBER PUN!

257 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 14:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

Semantical nitpick: shouldn't the "Page top" link be called "Thread list"?

258 Name:   2005-10-22 14:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

Maybe. I just picked something at random.

259 Name: coda 2005-10-22 15:01 ID:1jzeBBcT [Del]

the text

c < d

causes a <d> tag to be opened, which is not on the list, and therefore all the text until the next tag will be deleted. a better behavior in this case would be to just convert that < to &lt;. you even ought to do this for

a < b

too, despite the fact that b is a valid tag, because who the hell leaves the closing angle bracket out of their HTML tag?

creating the correct regexes for this is an exercise left to the reader.

260 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 16:20 ID:Heaven [Del]

This is the obligatory encoding test ... in <code>

 ㋋㏡
ゔ〲〰 ゔ〲〲〰〰 ゔ〲〰 ゔ〲〰 ゔ〲〰ゔ 〲〰ゔ 〲〰ゔ〲〲〰ゔゔ
〳〵ヷヷヷヷ〰〰〰〳〵ヷヷヷヷ〰〰〰〳〵ヷヷヷヷ〰〰〰
(♛ฺД)(*゜∀゜)~♡ℳฺℴฺℯฺ❤ℒฺℴฺνℯฺ..._〆(゜▽゜*)㌰㌰ ㍉㍍㌧㌔㌶㍊㌣㌦
㌀㌁㌂㌃㌄㌅㌆㌇㌈㌉㌊㌋㌌☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ ☠ฺ
☼♭♬♫♨♩♧♦♥♤♣♢♠♡♐ฺ♑ฺ♒ฺ♓ฺ ♔ฺ♕ฺ ♖

ฺ ♗ฺ♘ฺ♙ฺ♚ฺ♛ฺ♜ฺ♝(・∀・)/ヾ~~╋┓!㋦㋸㋭°

|壁|」゜ρ゜)」 ノ ヽ``~ 力㋦㋸㋭°
     / ⌒ヽ  
   / ´_ゝ`) I am sorry、 the β α κ α kopipe couldn't be carried out・・・
  |     /
   | /|  |
  // |  |
 U   .U  

261 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 16:23 ID:Heaven [Del]

http://wakaba.c3.cx/test/sanitize.pl?html=%3Ccode%3E+%E3%8B%8B%E3%8F%A1%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A+%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0+%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0+%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0+%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0+%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0%E3%82%94+%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0%E3%82%94+%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0%E3%82%94%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B2%E3%80%B0%E3%82%94%E3%82%94%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%80%B3%E3%80%B5%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B3%E3%80%B5%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B3%E3%80%B5%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%83%B7%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%E3%80%B0%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%28%E2%99%9B%E0%B8%BA%D0%94%29%28*%E3%82%9C%E2%88%80%E3%82%9C%29%EF%BD%9E%E2%99%A1%E2%84%B3%E0%B8%BA%E2%84%B4%E0%B8%BA%E2%84%AF%E0%B8%BA%E2%9D%A4%E2%84%92%E0%B8%BA%E2%84%B4%E0%B8%BA%CE%BD%E2%84%AF%E0%B8%BA..._%E3%80%86%28%E3%82%9C%E2%96%BD%E3%82%9C*%29%E3%8C%B0%E3%8C%B0+%E3%8D%89%E3%8D%8D%E3%8C%A7%E3%8C%94%E3%8C%B6%E3%8D%8A%E3%8C%A3%E3%8C%A6%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%8C%80%E3%8C%81%E3%8C%82%E3%8C%83%E3%8C%84%E3%8C%85%E3%8C%86%E3%8C%87%E3%8C%88%E3%8C%89%E3%8C%8A%E3%8C%8B%E3%8C%8C%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA+%E2%98%A0%E0%B8%BA%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E2%98%BC%E2%99%AD%E2%99%AC%E2%99%AB%E2%99%A8%E2%99%A9%E2%99%A7%E2%99%A6%E2%99%A5%E2%99%A4%E2%99%A3%E2%99%A2%E2%99%A0%E2%99%A1%E2%99%90%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%91%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%92%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%93%E0%B8%BA+%E2%99%94%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%95%E0%B8%BA+%E2%99%96%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%97%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%98%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%99%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%9A%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%9B%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%9C%E0%B8%BA%E2%99%9D%28%EF%BD%A5%E2%88%80%EF%BD%A5%29%2F%E3%83%BE%7E%7E%E2%95%8B%E2%94%93%21%E3%8B%A6%E3%8B%B8%E3%8B%AD%C2%B0%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%7C%E5%A3%81%7C%E3%80%8D%E3%82%9C%CF%81%E3%82%9C%29%E3%80%8D%E3%80%80%E3%83%8E+%E3%83%BD%60%60%EF%BD%9E+%E5%8A%9B%E3%8B%A6%E3%8B%B8%E3%8B%AD%C2%B0%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E2%80%89%E3%80%80+%E3%80%80+%EF%BC%8F%E2%80%89%E2%8C%92%E3%83%BD+%E2%80%89%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%80%80%E2%80%89%E3%80%80%2F%E3%80%80%C2%B4_%E3%82%9D%60%EF%BC%89+I+am+sorry%E3%80%81%E2%80%89the+%CE%B2%E2%80%89%CE%B1%E2%80%89%CE%BA%E2%80%89%CE%B1%E2%80%89kopipe+couldn%27t+be+carried+out%E3%83%BB%E3%83%BB%E3%83%BB%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%80%80%E3%80%80%7C%E3%80%80%E2%80%89+%E3%80%80%E3%80%80%2F%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E2%80%89%E3%80%80%E3%80%80%7C+%2F%7C%E2%80%89%E3%80%80%7C%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%80%80+%2F%2F%E3%80%80%7C+%E2%80%89%7C%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E%0D%0A%E3%80%80%EF%BC%B5%E2%80%89%E3%80%80+.%EF%BC%B5+%E2%80%89%3C%2Fcode%3E%3Cbr+%2F%3E

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

262 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 16:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

"page top" is better imho

263 Name:   2005-10-22 16:55 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>259

Fixed.

>>260-261

The test script doesn't try to handle charsets at all at the moment.

264 Name: Anonymous 2005-10-22 18:51 ID:Heaven [Del]

Random post: The test thread could use some linking in the notes at the bottom (what's the common nomenclature for that one?).

265 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 14:24 ID:Heaven [Del]

All right, code updated again. This time, some experimenting! I've implemented a tentative system for changing markup types. This needs a bunch of testing, of course, so here's the test thread link once again: http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1099697376/

Thoughts and comments are welcome. I'm still trying to figure out how exactly to do this.

There's a bunch of other changes and fixes too, so mention if anything breaks, as usual. Also, shift-reload!

266 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 14:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

ugh "More options..."

too much clickable elements! and it doesn't even do anything (Firefox 1.0.7 here)!

out! out!

267 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 14:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>266

I told you to shift-reload!

268 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 15:00 ID:Heaven [Del]

I hate that blue link next to the reply box! It looks ugly!

Also, there's no "Less options..."

Can't this be somewhere else but the post form?

269 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 15:11 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Can't this be somewhere else but the post form?

No, because that would be immensely useless and annoying, because nobody would know it's there, and even if they did, they'd have to go somewhere else every time they wanted to post something using a different markup.

270 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 15:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

The problem reported in >>143 is still present.

271 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 16:32 ID:Heaven [Del]

Did you ditch customizable capcodes?

How about placing the Formatting menu to the left or right of the "File: " field? I'd also like to see WakabaMark changed to its real name (Markdown).

A few other considerations:

  • Using "◆" as the default tripkey character.
  • No need for the "Navigation: " text before the navigation links in subpages
  • In Pseud0ch, post numbers should be the same size/format as the rest of the header text
  • I'm still thinking that subback should be as minimal as possible: no navlinks, title, or last post/filesize data. Then again, I'm from the school of following 0ch blindly.
  • Variable admin permissions per password
  • Is the Admin bar gonna come back before the final version?

Small details aside, this is seriously shaping up to be an amazing release. Your efforts are much appreciated, WAHa.

272 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 16:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

PS. What's "Raw HTML"?

273 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 16:34 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh, and "AA mode" should be changed to "Text art mode" so we won't be incessantly quibbling about the difference between ASCII and SJIS art.

274 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 16:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Did you ditch customizable capcodes?

No, I removed the dumbass capcode I put in as a demonstration, because I don't like capcodes.

> Using "◆" as the default tripkey character.

I dunno, I always thought that was a kind of big and annoying symbol. Especially when it's so close visually to the question-mark-in-diamond marker some fonts use for characters they don't support.

> How about placing the Formatting menu to the left or right of the "File: " field? I'd also like to see WakabaMark changed to its real name (Markdown).

The File field is almost never there. Also, WakabaMark is similar to, but not the same as Markdown. There are significant differences that make them incompatible (since Markdown is designed to be used when you know you're using it, but WakabaMark tries as best as it can to not do unexpected things if you don't know about it). I might add optional support for real Markdown at some point.

> In Pseud0ch, post numbers should be the same size/format as the rest of the header text

I tried, and it looked much worse than the current solution. Besides, post numbers in Kareha and 0ch aren't the same, since they're clickable here.

> PS. What's "Raw HTML"?

Pretty useless. I'll probably remove it. It's HTML input without turning newlines into <br/>.

> Oh, and "AA mode" should be changed to "Text art mode"

Maybe just "Text art"... hmm.

275 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 16:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

> The File field is almost never there.

...especially not when I've added a bug that makes it disappear. Where the hell did it go?

276 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 17:40 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>275
Heh, I thought you had disabled it manually.

>The File field is almost never there.

Right, and when it isn't, the Formatting menu can still reside on the same line.

The error page in mode_message should more closely resemble that of 0ch (complete with "ERROR!" title).

277 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 17:59 ID:Heaven [Del]

All right, made another small update. Needs a shift-reload again to work quite right (there's a short description of the various markup modes now). Also fixed >>143 and removed "Raw HTML".

278 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 18:02 ID:Heaven [Del]

Text Art's description about auto-linking URLs and >> references is redundant. Not a bad solution with the layout, though (hiding the menu behind "More options..." still bugs me).

279 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 18:05 ID:gBva8ggI [Del]

>>278

How do you figure it's redundant?

280 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 18:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

Hmmm, I just noticed you still allow <a> tags, which would let posters use inline links. Are you gonna keep that?

281 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 18:18 ID:Heaven [Del]

<a href="#">Is that true?</a>

282 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 18:24 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>280

I'm not sure. On the one hand, people expect that to work. On the other hand, it can be a bit annoying. On the third hand, it's not all that annoying anyway.

284 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 18:27 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>279
Every mode auto-links URLs and >> references, or at least they should (HTML mode doesn't for some reason).

>>281
Well the description is outdated, then. :P

In any case, inserting an ASCII carriage return in HTML mode still renders as a line break. Bug or feature?

285 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 18:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>284

HTML mode handles >> references, but not URLs because I've been too lazy to figure out a regexp that would handle that correctly. Also, yes, newlines are converted to <br /> intentionally. This matches how most sites that accept HTML markup work.

286 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 19:13 ID:Heaven [Del]

> The error page in mode_message should more closely resemble that of 0ch (complete with "ERROR!" title).

Signed. And the style selector on the error page is pretty useless.

287 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 19:25 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oh, and the navigation bar on the error page should probably look like the one on the thread page.

288 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 19:30 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>287
0ch's error page provides a link to return to the board from which the error originated, which I think is pretty reasonable. Sometimes I think the navigation bar and CSS selector are used somewhat excessively in mode_message (though the latter's presence has been diminished significantly throughout the course of this thread).

289 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 19:40 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>288

Return links are actually not a very good idea. I know some browsers will clear all input fields if you follow a link back to the page you came from, but leave the fields intact if you click the back button.

290 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 19:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>289
Well, you have links now in the current incarnation. I would think that this kinda thing (Return link vs. Back button) would be common knowledge by now among regular Internet users.

291 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 19:54 ID:Heaven [Del]

No "2ch mode" link in the footer? I think Hiroyuki deserves some credit.

292 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 20:18 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>269
> No, because that would be immensely useless and annoying, because nobody would know it's there,

Nobody knows how to use WakabaMark as it is now either and I don't see a big fat ugly WakabaMark FAQ next to the post form either.

> and even if they did, they'd have to go somewhere else every time they wanted to post something using a different markup.

I am just guessing here, but I am pretty sure most people will only change their settings in very rare cases.
I really think this is something that would be more useful in some sort of browser extension than in the actual software.

293 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 20:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

Man, this really is annoying.

Partition for unified encoding! Outsource Markup to the select few who want it (I am pretty sure the vast majority of users can live without it).

294 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 20:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

> I don't see a big fat ugly WakabaMark FAQ next to the post form either.

You don't see the link to the WakabaMark page either?

> I am just guessing here, but I am pretty sure most people will only change their settings in very rare cases.

I just added the Text Art mode so that people could post AA on any board and have it work right, but the only way for that to work is if you can quickly change modes between posts.

Look, it's getting just a tiny bit annoying with the complaining. I've been putting a huge amount of effort into making this work well both for those who want markup and those who don't. If you don't like it, you turn it off and don't need to bother with it again. There's just a tiny little link there to let people do this. Is this really a such a huge bother to deal with? It's *two words*.

295 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 20:39 ID:Heaven [Del]

Hmm, apparently there's some sort of bug in there still, since it's not marking up that.

296 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 20:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

Should be fixed now.

297 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 20:52 ID:Heaven [Del]

How about appending an estimated (at the time of thread creation) time of pruning to the first post's header, if pruning-by-age is enabled?

298 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-23 20:54 ID:Heaven [Del]

Currently, pruning by age is measured from the time of the newest post in the thread, so it wouldn't really work. I'm not sure if this is the best behaviour or not, but it seems it makes more sense to kill threads nobody cares about than to kill slow-moving threads just because they get old.

299 Name: anon!21anon4H3U : 2005-10-23 21:48 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>294 Hey I like the new formatting bit. Should it collapse back down if you click away or if you click the "More options..." bit again, like the text box?

Just a thought. This setup is easier and more obvious than using the link field, with "AA" or "Wakabamark". BTW, I just realized that was a pun. Boo! Hiss! Not punny! :)

300 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-23 23:06 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>299
Seconded. This'll go a long way to resolving headaches with WakabaMark and SJIS art, and there really isn't anything egregious about its current implementation into the mode_message template (nothing compared to putting it in a separate area, for example)

Going back to the CSS selector: since switching styles is not inherently supported in all browser GUIs, how about having a third party create extensions for those browsers and freeing up the real estate on the actual page? The selector to me seems out of place with the rest of the layout, simply because it's only there for the purpose of presentation, not the actual page content. How many people out there change styles from board defaults on a regular basis because of readability preferences?

301 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 00:56 ID:Heaven [Del]

Is it intentional that thread links without a trailing slash (like http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1129153864 ) do not work anymore? They seem to work in 0ch and kareha 2.0.x.

302 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 01:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

> how about having a third party create extensions for those browsers and freeing up the real estate on the actual page?

What's with this obsession on removing the CSS options? It's a single line, and some of us find it useful.

Real estate? Scroll down.

303 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-24 05:33 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Is it intentional that thread links without a trailing slash

Uh, I was wondering the same thing. I'm not sure. I guess I should fix that.

304 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 11:09 ID:Heaven [Del]

Hmm, the new error page looks much better except the overlapping of the navigation bar with the error message box.

305 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 12:04 ID:Heaven [Del]

> You don't see the link to the WakabaMark page either?

Nope... ?

> There's just a tiny little link there to let people do this. Is this really a such a huge bother to deal with? It's two words.

It's a link, it screams "Click me!". Most people don't need it most of the time, still it'll be there all of the time. How about style:none or something?

And sorry for being annoying. Strong opinions and all, no offense.

306 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-24 12:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>305

Shift-reload already! Also, most people are familiar with "More options..." links and know when and when not to click them. I might see about styling it, though.

307 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E : 2005-10-24 15:21 ID:Heaven [Del]

> It's a link, it screams "Click me!".

There's something to be said about obsessive-compulsive... >.>;

308 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 15:37 ID:hjzD4Li4 [Del]

Why not make None or Text Art the default? That way you don't surprise people.

Also, can you make >> links into anchors('#') when you're on the reply/entire thread page, especially in Wakaba? Currently when you click the link it just reloads the page with a different highlight, which is not all that helpful.

309 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 15:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Why not make None or Text Art the default? That way you don't surprise people.
The default should be an option in config.pl
> Also, can you make >> links into anchors('#') when you're on the reply/entire thread page, especially in Wakaba?
If this is ever implemented it should also be optional.

310 Name: 309 : 2005-10-24 15:51 ID:Heaven [Del]

And my post ist a good example for chosing the wrong markup :/

311 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-24 17:24 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Why not make None or Text Art the default?

Because >>309. I don't want to implement half of WakabaMark for the None mode, and without it you don't get stuff like quote highlighting.

> Also, can you make >> links into anchors('#') when you're on the reply/entire thread page, especially in Wakaba?

Er, that is exactly how Wakaba works right now? And Kareha can't change the contents of posts dynamically, so it'll never do it.

312 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 18:15 ID:Heaven [Del]

Oops. I got confused by the "link to parent post" thing. Maybe you could make that an anchor as well.

Not getting quote highlighting is the point, isn't it? I guess if you really want WakabaMark to spread you can force it on everyone who doesn't know how to change, but it would be nicer to make people choose it so we don't have to constantly see the results of accidental markup. This is more about social engineering than your program, though.

313 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-24 18:41 ID:Heaven [Del]

Well, I don't want to have to read posts without highlighting. It's annoying. Just for that, I don't want leave it off.

On another topic, a vote: I could make the secure tripcodes and other parts of the script that use the SECRET more secure by some small changes, but this would make secure trips change when you install the new version.

Good idea, y/n?

314 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-24 19:40 ID:0dCD+kFU [Del]

I vote yes, but that is obvious isn't it?

315 Name: anon!21anon4H3U : 2005-10-24 20:46 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>313 Like lots of people use them anyway </sarcasm>. Yes, security is a good idea. What are the holes, anyway?

316 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-25 05:01 ID:Heaven [Del]

Nothing specific, just protecting against any possible future ones.

317 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-25 15:45 ID:Heaven [Del]

So, I made the All threads page a lot fancier. Might need some shift-reloading to get the proper CSS.

Is this about done, besides the admin bit? I'm getting a bit tired and distractions are looming to the left and right.

318 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-25 17:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

style:none plz!

319 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-25 18:35 ID:Heaven [Del]

rel=nofollow for internal links as discussed in http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1127092367/

320 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-25 20:17 ID:Heaven [Del]

321 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-26 09:17 ID:SjmelPTB [Del]

About rel=nofollow: What links should have it? Obviously not the "entire thread" link, but the l50 links in the thread list sort of need it, otherwise the search engine will never find them in the first place. But that means the l50 links will end up in the index.

322 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 10:38 ID:Heaven [Del]

You could add entire thread links to either the "num" or "posts" column in subback.

323 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 18:16 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>321
Wait, why should l50 links be indexed/cached? IMO the only links that should be on Google at all are main pages and "entire thread" links.

Some final points (I hope) before the whole thing is wrapped up:

  • The CSS in the All threads page is unsightly. Is there a way to properly wrap the outer color border(s) around the table of threads?
  • I still say that the "Navigation: " text is extraneous when people can clearly see what the links do. Also still partitioning for 0ch-style error pages (with displayed user host and all).
  • Now that we do have filesize indicators in the backlog page of mode_message, do you still find it useless to have the red bold filesizes near the bottom of thread subpages?
  • Does mode_message now work in PAGE_GENERATION => 'paged'?
  • Idea: forced anonymous/sage/ID/fusianasan by IP/thread/board/whole site (some of these combinations already exist, I know)?
  • Finally, I imagine that the permasage/close/delete functions in kareha.pl will be easily interchangeable among the conditions in post_stuff(). Can you confirm this?

324 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 18:34 ID:Heaven [Del]

> forced fusianasan

that seems kind of evil.

325 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 18:47 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>324
I've heard they use it on a per-IP basis for troublesome posters on 2ch. It could also discourage people from being jisakujien (supposing ID is disabled) or posting in a certain thread unless they're totally willing to have their host revealed.

326 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-26 19:08 ID:SjmelPTB [Del]

> Wait, why should l50 links be indexed/cached?

Because the only way for the search engine to find the old threads is to go through the l50 links. I'm taking the advice of >>322 though.

> The CSS in the All threads page is unsightly. Is there a way to properly wrap the outer color border(s) around the table of threads?

You need to explain what you're talking about before I can do anything about that. What style, and what does "wrap the outer color border(s) around" mean?

> I still say that the "Navigation: " text is extraneous when people can clearly see what the links do. Also still partitioning for 0ch-style error pages (with displayed user host and all).

It's there because freefloating unlabelled links look weird.

> Now that we do have filesize indicators in the backlog page of mode_message, do you still find it useless to have the red bold filesizes near the bottom of thread subpages?

They're there, but only if you enable pruning by size.

> Does mode_message now work in PAGE_GENERATION => 'paged'?

No. I'm too lazy to figure what that's supposed to do, and I don't think anybody actually wants to use that in the first place.

> Idea: forced anonymous/sage/ID/fusianasan by IP/thread/board/whole site (some of these combinations already exist, I know)?

There's no database to keep IP data in, and I'd prefer to keep the script completely agnostic to IP addresses.

> Finally, I imagine that the permasage/close/delete functions in kareha.pl will be easily interchangeable among the conditions in post_stuff(). Can you confirm this?

No, because I don't know what you mean.

327 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 19:13 ID:GUU8bzQY [Del]

What about a(n) (optional) preview page? It would be nice, especially with the multiple formating options. It also allows most of the benefits of being able to edit posts, without being able to edit posts. I don't know how often I've screw up a quote because it didn't look like multiple lines but it was.

Is there a reason why the post box is so small and pushed to the side?

Forced fusianasan would be fine I think, if they had advanced warning.

328 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-26 19:34 ID:SjmelPTB [Del]

> What about a(n) (optional) preview page?

I've been considering that, but it's a goddamn pain to implement. It'd be pretty useful, though. Also, it could include the spell checker someone requested way back at the beginning of time.

329 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 20:01 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>326

>You need to explain what you're talking about before I can do anything about that.?

See attached screenshot. It's in every style but Pseud0ch.

>No. I'm too lazy to figure what that's supposed to do, and I don't think anybody actually wants to use that in the first place.

Well the functionality is already in kareha.pl, right? All you need is some modifications to the mode_message template. You can check out the 2ch-like boards on Futaba for reference, though I'm pretty sure I've seen other 2ch-like boards that implement multi-paged functionality with a different layout. Personally, it isn't all that big a deal if it's just a template issue though.

>There's no database to keep IP data in, and I'd prefer to keep the script completely agnostic to IP addresses.

No need for a database, just a text file. You're right about storing IPs, though, but then how can you implement a banning system? Do you use an encrypted IP like the algorithm to generate ID codes?

>No, because I don't know what you mean.

I mean that (for example) if I wanted to replace the permasaging function under the MAX_POSTS condition (permasage after X posts) with the thread-closing function (close after X posts), all it would require is a simple replacement of the proper function references in post_stuff(), correct?

>>327

>(optional) preview page

Excessive, methinks.

>Is there a reason why the post box is so small and pushed to the side?

Because mode_message is modeled after the 0ch layout. To compensate for the smallness, it expands automatically when you click inside it.

>Forced fusianasan would be fine I think, if they had advanced warning.

This can be easily done manually with rules.html

330 Name: 329 : 2005-10-26 20:02 ID:Heaven (Image: 1010x554 png, 76 kb) [Del]

src/1130378556374.png: 1010x554, 76 kb

Oops, here's the screenshot. orz

331 Name: 329 : 2005-10-26 20:03 ID:Heaven [Del]

While we're on that note, can there be a config.pl option to toggle between opening file attachments in a new window or in the current window?

332 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 20:28 ID:y5Ya7L3/ [Del]

>>323-324
The 2channel moderation request forms that are mods of 0ch use 強制リモホ, which is Forced_Remote_Host, more or less. And it makes sense, there.

Forced_IP is only enabled on the "Siberia super-news flash" board: http://etc3.2ch.net/siberia/

And I have no idea what that board is about...

333 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 20:33 ID:y5Ya7L3/ [Del]

>>327-328
All of this would be better handled by an external application. I think you are putting way too much work into user gimmicks as it is.

More options means putting more buttons, links, etc. into the interface. I am still bothered by the "More options...", but I am just a text purist (doing my fair share of AA, though) anyway, so meh meh... ( ´・ω・`)

334 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 20:38 ID:y5Ya7L3/ [Del]

Suggestion / Request

Making "More options..." an option in the configs.

Seems sensible, when you already have the ability to turn off WakabaMark as a board admin. Also, it will make me stop whining (a bit).

335 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-26 21:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>334
These kind of things are not very difficult to remove from the template if they truly bother you.

336 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 01:05 ID:GUU8bzQY [Del]

>>333
The whole point of websites is to implement things without the external application. I don't understand the argument for OH NO ANOTHER BUTTON MY WHOLE LIFE IS RUINNED crowd. If you don't like the extra buttons why don't you remove them with an external application and/or preferences? When you are talking about formating options, a preview makes sense. Are you going to set up your thrid-party application for every configuration of tags supported for every board?

If a feature is of a wide enough audience, it should be included. I'm sure nearly everyone could use a preview every once in a while, whereas something like a Bible quotation functionality would not have wide use.

337 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-27 04:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

I don't see what's so bad about >>330. The alternative is to force the table to be full width, which will make it uglier (because in HTML all columns will become wider, including the skinniest ones), and harder to read.

> No need for a database, just a text file. You're right about storing IPs, though, but then how can you implement a banning system? Do you use an encrypted IP like the algorithm to generate ID codes?

Banning is done through Apache, which really makes more sense than doing it in the script. I don't want to re-invent the wheel for that.

> I mean that (for example) if I wanted to replace the permasaging function under the MAX_POSTS condition (permasage after X posts) with the thread-closing function (close after X posts), all it would require is a simple replacement of the proper function references in post_stuff(), correct?

No, they're done at different different places, because they are essentially different functions. The permasage behaviour doesn't actually permasage a thread, it only refrains from bumping it. There's no permsage flag added to the thread. The closing, on the other hand, does add a flag to the thread.

> Making "More options..." an option in the configs.
> Seems sensible, when you already have the ability to turn off WakabaMark as a board admin.

No. And I actually removed the DISABLE_WAKABAMARK option since it's no longer really needed. The replacement will be an option to select the default markup for a board, which makes much more sense overall.

338 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 05:06 ID:Heaven [Del]

> I don't understand the argument for OH NO ANOTHER BUTTON MY WHOLE LIFE IS RUINNED crowd

It's all a design & layout question. I'd like to have the interface reduced to what is absolutely neccessary, esp. since I do not think many people really want to even bother or bother very often with the whole markup question.

> The replacement will be an option to select the default markup for a board, which makes much more sense overall.

I agree, this seems to make the most sense. I understand the "More options..." will not be showing up on boards with fixed settings, so I'll shut my mouth from now on. Apologies to all who I've been bothering.

339 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-27 05:53 ID:Heaven [Del]

> I'd like to have the interface reduced to what is absolutely neccessary

That's why there is a "More options..." link, instead of putting the controls there on every single thread everywhere.

340 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 08:57 ID:Heaven (Image: 1010x554 png, 80 kb) [Del]

src/1130425040482.png: 1010x554, 80 kb

>>336
IMO minimalist web applications like Kareha should only focus on core content/functionality and leave the inconsequential presentation options up to browser extensions so that each user can tweak them to his whim. That's why I was pushing to offload the CSS selector to an extension.

>>337
Here's a better example, I think. Even if we can't remove the excessive side borders, is there a way to at least have rounded corners?

On formatting options: I think >>338 fails to understand that leaving the formatting options up to each individual user is a good thing by all means. Besides, they are absolutely necessary to the interface and core functionality, just like the Name and URL fields are. Preview functionality, on the other hand, should be implemented in an extension.

I think the issue that people have with the formatting options is that we don't have a Japanese counterpart to blindly model it after. Since we're going at this on our own, nobody is quite sure how it should be done. I'd like to see how it turns out on mode_image (if you feel the need to include it at all). :)

341 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 09:09 ID:Heaven (Image: 1010x554 png, 30 kb) [Del]

src/1130425770135.png: 1010x554, 30 kb

There are some inconsistencies in both the Blue Moon and Futaba styles, with regard to the size and formatting of text labels in the Create new thread and Reply form areas.
The spacing of the Create new thread title is off in Futaba, Headline, and Toothpaste.
None of the styles that utilize rounded corner borders have them in the Create new thread area.

342 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-27 09:31 ID:SjmelPTB [Del]

I don't see any inconsistencies in >>341 except for the rounded corners.

343 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 09:51 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>342
Well, for example, in both forms the text labels are bolded when they shouldn't be, in Futaba and Blue Moon. If you take a look at Blue Moon, the text labels in Create new thread are larger than those in the Reply box.

344 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-27 10:34 ID:SjmelPTB [Del]

>>343

"When they shouldn't be?" They've always been bolded.

345 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 10:50 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>344 orz

346 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 16:36 ID:+jQxeHvJ [Del]

http://wakaba.c3.cx/sup/kareha.pl/1114201493/l50

Or use some sort of filter to replace them characters with underscores on upload.
This offcourse for files that keep their original filename.

347 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-27 16:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

Thanks. I did it the hard way and put in the proper transformations everywhere so filenames can be kept intact, though.

348 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 17:17 ID:Heaven [Del]

I notice some weirdness with the CSS changes sometimes. For example, the first post on a -100 page will sometimes have the first character of the post enlarged. >>2 looks something like
\
/>2 until it is mouse-overed or you change the CSS, but then it goes back to large again on refresh. Also can happen with lowercase letters. Some of the field labels also change size from refreshing in a certain CSS versus just switching to it.

>It's all a design & layout question. I'd like to have the interface reduced to what is absolutely neccessary, esp. since I do not think many people really want to even bother or bother very often with the whole markup question.

Why have a name field or link field? For the majority of posts they are not used, or only used for sage. As stated earlier, they are not even needed for the bare minimum of usage. You want to prove it is you posting? Use a gpg signature or something and a third-party extension, it is just fluff that is not needed at all!

I'm all for having a system that is easy to modify to the end-user's wants and needs. However, there are going to be plenty of users that are not hardcore enough to make or use such options. Therefore, the normal functionality should be pretty usable.

People seem to pop-up whenever something that would change the interface to shout it down. They seem to fear any change and normally give no reason other than it would clutter things up or some nonsense. Does the CSS selector -really- get in your way? It is probably a whole ten pixels! Is having the More options thing really ruining your experience, or are you just against it on some principle? Personally, I would move it below the comment text-area or something, as now the tab amounts between the main fields has changed.

349 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-27 17:20 ID:Heaven [Del]

350 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-28 03:57 ID:Heaven [Del]

> Does the CSS selector -really- get in your way?
> Is having the More options thing really ruining your experience,

Yes and yes and I already stated why.

I am sure you know this but text markup takes place on a whole different level than identification/bumping issues. Your comment about pgp signatures is very funny but I will not honour it with a comment.

351 Name: dmpk2k!hinhT6kz2E : 2005-10-28 04:55 ID:Heaven [Del]

I think you're a bit nutty, >>350...

352 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-28 06:34 ID:Heaven [Del]

At least i got 350

353 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-28 09:06 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>348

That's a Firefox bug.

354 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-28 18:01 ID:Heaven [Del]

Gah, I am totally confused about what to do about the admin interface. Separate script? Built-in? Javascript? How do I display the data? I have no idea!

355 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-28 19:32 ID:m/57LIb/ [Del]

There needs to be a separate page for bans, at least.

356 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-28 20:05 ID:Heaven [Del]

I'm not sure I want to make a ban system. I'd rather just make it easy to interface with a simple banning script that does whatever's needed for the server it's running on.

357 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-31 11:19 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>354
admin.pl with a separate HTML page in ./admin (so it can be accessed simply by appending "/admin" to the board URL). It should have every possible admin feature available in kareha.pl, including rebuilding caches, modifying the spamlist, and nuking the board.

358 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-31 12:45 ID:QLQI2pST [Del]

...and admin posts that override all board/thread restrictions (ie, bumping a permasaged thread and possibly even posting in closed threads).

359 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-31 12:45 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>357
by "including," I mean "plus."

360 Name: !WAHa.06x36 : 2005-10-31 13:25 ID:Heaven [Del]

Too late! Already released!

361 Name: Anonymous : 2005-10-31 16:44 ID:Heaven [Del]

>>360
Doesn't mean we can't have separate releases for special scripts. :)

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363 Post deleted by moderator.

364 Post deleted by moderator.

365 Post deleted by moderator.

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