Since this was being discussed in another thread where it was totally off-topic, I think it's time for it to have its own thread. Here we discuss the word "hentai" (and "ecchi"), and the difference in meaning between the original Japanese words and the English usage of them.
Why? What you foreigners call 'Hentai' is hentai itself.
It is ridiculously, vacuously true. You know, it is this fact that 'Hentai' is nothing else than hentai which has gotten some Japanese who imagine thir own country culturally youthful and flawless, no inferior than the western. That's the point of this discussion and nothing else.
Gooooogle hits 2000,000 Hentai.
I don't know good English word to... Didn't learn at school cursing vocabulary...
In everyday Japanese, Pantsu means pants now (as a fashion term).
Because the word Zubon is outdated & considered 'dasai', we can't but say Pantsu.
To say Pantsu to designate Pantsu would be regarded unfashionable, or, as if a girl was avoiding the too much pretty word, 'Pantii'.
I don't use the word Ecchi without verbalizing it. Ecchi-suru, i.e., sleep with some one (generally 2nd person). Say it cool, "Kon'ya, Ecchi-suru?" And she will reply, "Mmmmm, Ecchi nandakara..." Ecchi is a cute joking word, one of the most gentle words in modern Japanese. Almighty word. By no way harmful.
We don't say hentai-suru...
Hentai is the word for a girl, in elementary school, who is upskirted. "...kun, hentaaai! Kimoooi!"
No one who already knows another scientific meaning ever uses this word in this sense. By the way, kimoi (short for kimochi-warui) is the best word to knock down a Japanese (male/female). You can omit the last i. "Kimo!" And s/he will never call you again.
Analysis.
Hentai is old Chinese origin word (Kango) & unconsciously sounds intellectual and schoolish.
Ecchi is English word (...yes. English.) & sounds blondy.
No one knows the etimology of Ecchi. It is from Japanese biggest dictionary (kojien) that Ecchi was an acronym for hentai in a high society girls' highschool, long ago, when there was still a kind of high society in Japan.
No doubt English Hentai will be readapted into Japanese.
Few Japanese read Harry Potter, Sci-Fi, Load of the Ring, American comics, fanfics, &c.
It is like Sakoku again. & westerners appreciate with their culturalized and historical and equality-minded objective eye Ukiyoe (manga).
I am not proud of our manga... Cuz would be nationalidiotic. But it is the BEST art form we have by now.
Sorry, I was forced to state all about the subconsciousness of japanese feels.
Hobby is hobby & don't take it hard!
I have heard it said that "ecchi" is how the Japanese pronounce the letter "H", as in "hentai".
>>54 Yeah, language changes over time, in any country.
I remember reading that saitei [最低] was the worst insult ever. Then it was overused and lost its punch. Nowadays it's not so much used and doesn't have the same power anymore.
>"ecchi" is how the Japanese pronounce the letter "H"
True.
>"H", as in "hentai"
Maybe, maybe not. "The validity of this claim is currently being challenged." :)
As a non-involved observer I think it's very obvious it's the H of Hentai, but because the Japanese love (and use) so much the word "ecchi", they refuse to admit the two are related until overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As >>54-san pointed out, ecchi and hentai are currently virtually opposed concepts, despite having possibly a common origin. I'd say they are the two faces of the same coin, one is ugly and the other one is pretty.
The point, though, is that it doesn't matter if that's the origin, since the use has drifted far enough for the possible connection to be irrelevant to anybody but linguists. It is only interesting to people as trivia, as a "wow, who'd have thought?" kind of observation.
> love (and use) so much the word [...] they refuse to admit the two are related until overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Is that a reiteration of the "lolicon means pedophile" argument, or am I reading too much into it?
>>61
You mean those ones who are in denial about being branded a lolicon despite having tons of h-games of very young girls in sexual situations? Yeah, it looks like it's the same kind of reasoning. The words carry a large amount of shame and therefore accepting the labels would be tantamount to a confession of guilt - but they don't feel guilty! "Well, just a little... but it's a guilty pleasure, so it can't be that bad... or is it? People love those forbidden fruit stories, don't they? Plenty of brother-sister stories in the shops... I'm just adding one more taboo for the spice, it can't be THAT bad, right? Right? Please don't judge me harshly... I don't want to be branded for life! Becoming an outcast... Thrown out of society.. People whispering behind your back... 'He's a [insert category here]!' Noooooooo!"
:)
>>62
:) Very nice.
I think lolicon is yet another unfortunate case of word usage going astray. I don't know about you, but I'm pedantic enough to believe loli!=lolita.
It's the ones who use "loli" excessively and excitedly that are the ones with hard drives full of games that, let's face it, should probably be correctly be called "pedophilia".
I still maintain that lolita doesn't mean pedophile, it's just unfortunate that the term lolicon, which should be tied to lolita, now means pedophile.
(needs more sleep... coherency for the win)
http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/jis/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=lolicon&WC=none
I don't think it's ever meant anything else.
Bugger. Okay, so should we discuss that we can be a lolicon and that that's not a Really Bad Thing? I argue that we can.
I am actually surprised they have a hikky board on 2ch but not a lolicon board.
I guess even Hiroyuki finds the idea of thousands of people trading U-15 links and WinNY cp hashes a bit creepy.
So yeah, it's really a bad thing. Shame on you, you dysfunctional deviants!
>>66
You're right, it's not a manner of black and white. There are many issues at hand, such as whether you also like women your age and whether you believe children can consent (cough*CV*cough)
>>67
There is a Card Captor Sakura forum which is mainly based around the topic of what they would do with Sakura if they saw her on the street.
>>68
This is something I actually wanted to bring up. Surely we must acknowledge a clear difference between young, completely undeveloped girls, and developing, pubescent ones, which I believe the term lolita was intended for.
Further to this, can one be non-sexually attracted to a sexy, nubile, "underage" girl (ie. a lolita)? I think so. Just because I appreciate a young girl's figure doesn't mean I'd "hit it" at the first opportunity.
And how about those definitions for "loli", namely the age? Many (usually Americans) quote the age of consent as the borderline for "loli". What they fail to acknowledge is that there's probably about 50 different definitions for "underage" in that country, and that there's a whole world out there full of other ideas on the matter, too.
It's also not unknown for young girls, say 14 or 15, to be fully developed sexually. That might get you banned on not4chan, and yet, ha ha, she's well under age (I'll use 18=adult for the sake of my current argument).
A topic owrthy of discussion, maybe, but not really related to the topic of this thread, yes?
>>70 Actually it's very relevant. The question is, has the word loli drifted the same way as the word hentai in English?
Let's make up some definitions.
Japanese's hentai: anyone who is perverted/not aligned with the group's way of thinking, in real life or otherwise, but mostly real life.
English's hentai: Japanese drawings of sexual situations.
Japanese's loli: anyone obsessed with female children, in real life or otherwise, but mostly real life.
English's loli: Japanese drawings of female children in sexual situations.
If this definition of loli in English is correct -- as in, most spread about, -- then it has suffered the same fate as the word hentai. (zomg oh noes!!)
>>71
I'd agree with that statement.
Perhaps also worth giving some thought: Does anyone know where "loli" came from? Clearly it's a derivation of lolicon, but was it the Japanese or the Wapanese (^_^) that coined it? As an aside, I personally dislike it, but only because people bandy it around like asshats.
Novel Lolita (1955) by Vladimir Nabokov
↓
Character of the same name
↓
Word for the prototype the character represents (a precociously seductive girl)
↓
Word for any arousing young girl
↓
In their neverending efforts to label social phenomena, the Japanese derive from the above the term "lolicon" for people who are obsessed with young/underage girls.
↓
Since "con" is an abbreviation of "complex" and the other part of the word "lolicon" supposedly signifies the object of the complex, "loli" becomes a word for "lolita".
↓
People in the western realm start using "loli" to refer to underage 2D girls.
If that's true, then we've nailed it down (ie. blame the Wapanese). I knew all the steps before that well enough.
I think what gets me the most is the way people end up using "loli". I'm sure the Japanese don't use lolicon lightly, yet you get online and somehow the English speakers won't shut up about how they're pedophiles. Let it be noted that I can't confirm this; I don't speak Japanese, nor do I frequent any Japanese boards. This is partially conjecture.
Japan is more frank about pedophilia than the West, but the Western use of "loli" is still pretty bizarre.
>Japan is more frank about pedophilia than the West
In what way do you mean? (And be careful to avoid otaku-ish generalizations...)
ＭＯＥ！
ＨＥＮＴＡＩ！
ＤＯＵＪＩＮ！
http://kao.wakachan.net/r/src/1126431422521.png
(ノ∀｀)
The definition has drifted to the point where the noun 'lolita' has been appropriated to mean eighteen and nineteen year-old females on the internet.
Yes, many English-language speakers equate 'lolicon' (or 'roricon' - I've seen this Anglisation of the word) to pedophilia. This ultimately serves to show how stupid and closed-minded they are. The correct noun for a person with this fetish is 'ephebophilia'. An ephebophilist is interested in adolescent females, of the 13-18 year-old range. (Not a preteen or a prepubescent.)
Using a dictionary definition is "close-minded" now?
And the "ephebophilia" argument smacks of denial every time I see it used.
And of course this is still off-topic.
>An ephebophilist is interested in adolescent females, of the 13-18 year-old range.
2. If you honestly believe this is the case you must be deluding yourself, or browsing very strange websites. Go to not4chan.org and tell me how old the naked girls are on that website. 14 years old is the upper limit, the lower limit is something like 6 months.
>>82
From that link:
>Ephebophilia, from the Greek έφηβος (ephebos) "adolescent" and φιλία (philia) "love/friendship", is a sexual preference or orientation in which an adult is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to adolescents (usually people between the ages of 13 and 16).
Close enough. So ephebophilia essentially means underage, but not prepubescent. As for the whole lolicon/pedo debate, I'm not touching that with a ten foot clown pole.
>>85 I meant the female bit.
Actually using "ephebo-" is a bad choice for creating a word, as in Greek times it referred to young men in training for the army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebos
I've also heard the word "hebephilia" used for the attraction to teenagers, which cracks me up as it reminds me of "hebephrenic."
lol - who's coming up with those "scientific" words anyway? They are not in any standard dictionary, and there are already perfectly valid other words already.
Hey I can do this too. Lessee... Highschoolgirlphilia! Tamakinee-chan-o-philia! Making_useless_empty_words_doh_philia!
> Tamakinee-chan-o-philia
I want to see a paper published in a respectable journal use that. If only.
http://www.robobunny.com/cgi-bin/dislexicon will help you create mock-words
Example:
1: stereobullshitmetric (stereo-bullshit-metric) relating to measurement of solid or three dimensional bullshit
>>87
that cracks me up, as it reminds me of this:
http://www.juegomania.org/Hebereke+no+Popoon+(Japon%E9s)/fotos/snes/0/811_t/Foto+Hebereke+no+Popoon+(Japon%E9s).jpg
<3 HEBEREKE
Someone remind me where this conversation is going again? I'm finding it interesting, but we're losing direction.
If we're on the topic of what "lolita" means offline and online, I'm generally willing to agree they're the same. Sexually attractive, but "a bit" underage. We seem to hit a problem with lower bounds here.
My take on the issue:
I believe lolita applies to a girl in puberty. I feel this is consistent with the "dictionary definitions" that we've got. Prior to puberty she's sexually undeveloped. As a direct consequence, she can't be sexually attractive. Sexual attraction to a prepubescent girl then becomes fetishistic (ie. an attraction with no logical basis).
Now for the -philiae. (No, I don't know if that's linguistically correct).
Ephebophile, as I understand it, should mean adolescent love. It's not gender specific, and I figure it should cover a similar age range/level of maturity as "lolita".
In contrast, pedophilia is a love of children. I've hit a small inconsistency here as Wikipedia reckons ephebophilia doesn't necessarily imply a sexual attraction, but the writer for pedophilia clearly believes otherwise. I don't know what's correct, nor am I saying we can trust wikipedia. The truth of this will ultimately lie in its social interpretations.
That aside, the point is that pedophilia is restricted to pre-pubescent entities (by my own understanding). Once again, at this point it becomes fetishistic and illogical.
I'm willing to argue at this point that pedophilia and ephebophilia are distinct and exclusive bahaviours. Both are equally valid for usage if you wish to use them. Calling yourself an ephebophile is not some cop-out, in-denial way of being a "pedo".
Taking stereotypes for a moment, being a "dirty old man" that molests little boys is pedophilia and has a particular stigma attached to it. Being an adult in a relationship with a rapidly-maturing adolescent who is still "underage" (according to local jurisdiction) has a different stigma again. Only one of these is pedophilia, and conciously or not, this doesn't seem to go unnoticed by society (there are different stigmata).
Now, discuss.
>>92
This isn't really "The Pedophilia/Lolicon Thread"...
> In contrast, pedophilia is a love of children. I've hit a small inconsistency here as Wikipedia reckons ephebophilia doesn't necessarily imply a sexual attraction, but the writer for pedophilia clearly believes otherwise.
Hint: On Wikipedia, extremist points of view last longer on the articles that fewer people read.
> Then, as I asked, you'll need to remind me what the hell we are on about here.
See >>1
You'll astutely note that the topic of discussion has drifted somewhat. I did ask where we were at the current point in time.
I don't really care what kind of derailment is going on at the current point in time.
Talk about what >>1 is talking about or get out.
I agree - this isn't an idle discussion thread, it was created for the specific purpose of providing information on and discussing a certain topic, namely, >>1.
It seems that no one wants to branch out and create 'The "lolikon" thread' to solve the problem once and for all. "No not me noooooo... You go first!" :)
"lolikon" thread is now set up (not by me) here: http://wakaba.c3.cx/soc/kareha.pl/1128137793/
I feel that I have learned something today, but not for the life of me can I enunciate it.
>>107
99.1% of the Japanese ero production is deviant hentai anyway, but on iichan that word is the new nigger word! You'll get harassed and bullied on every single board for saying it! :)
No matter how deviant it is, you never use the word "hentai" when talking about porn in Japanese.
>>109
GJ on equaling the use of a racist term for which the offense has nothing to do with "correctness" with a linguistical incorrect term for which the offense only has to do with its incorrectness.
Also, it's "n-word", you intellectualy shriveled up raisin!
The words "the" and "word" are the MIND PILLOWS that make pointy and scary words, such as the "fuck" word, soft and acceptable!
>>111 Then put up a word filter to replace "hentai" by porn/ero/deviant/whatever on all boards. I'm starting to get a little tired to see every single newcomer being bullied because he said the h-word. Every other site use the word hentai freely, it's only on iichan that the poor guy gets rammed inside out for blurting it out. This site is made for the users, and those heavy-handed tactics are scaring and scarring them away from the shop.
>>115
oh noes, newbies are being told they are wrong! they will cry and flee the site, however shall we make it without them?
ps: wordfilters are dumb.
An example of "common" use:
>>117
I don't understand what that article is supposed to prove.
I didn't read all of it, I just understand it talks about western webcomics and western fanartists.
Ok being a fan of Japanese animation for oh god, 25years? We never referred to porn anime as hentai alone. hentai as was said earlier was a thing we would mimic of the girls in anime as a joke. Or in my case piss my grandparents off to no end.
Ero from what family in Japan has said is a borrowed word for erotica. Hence in Chobits Erosito or erotica site. I probably would translate it as such, not the porn site or hentai site that I had seen on fansubs. As for its use in English all my sighing over it will aught for naught. Since no matter the amount of whining about it will change the course of the usage once its started. Americans are very faddish. And will pick up any thing that is a "keyword" Take "High Definition" I see adds selling fucking contact lenses spouting HD vision. Or the ever popular "my bad" Slang from the rapper community taken into a proper phrase and even applied to translation of slang in other languages. To me >>54 closed this argument. It is the way we "old-timers" used the words, if we used them at all. And hentai is suppose to be used as a description not a noun or name for something. ( I think this is what >>54 meant in his/her first line)
The anime and cartoon thing can be debated till the end of ends. I have seen Japanese refer to American cartoons as well of all things cartoons. . . Here in the US early on we referred to Japanese animation as anime because the topics stories etc did not fit with American ideals for cartoons. Hell Heavy Metal is rarely referred to as a "cartoon" But as animation. This use even referred to euro animation. Often this material was not of a drooling sticky child content. It seems America has the prize for this stigmata of animation is for fuzz nuts only.
It does still sting to hear anime referred to as cartoons, but I don't go ape shit all over for it because well to most Americans it IS a cartoon. At least until they realize what the stories contain.
I can't say you younger fans are wrong, just a different generation than I am, Granted I was watching "anime" before I was even attending the first grade. So some of you "technically" are my generation >_<
Of constant bother to me is this new usage of JAP, whence people say nigger its all doom and gloom but I see jap used in hateful ways so often on English bbs or elsewhere. Someone brings up a comment about its derogatory history and use they claim its short for Japanese and that they are to lazy to type it out Proper use is JP or JPN but this current use of .uk .de .jp etc on the net JAP has become common. I mention this because I have seen plenty of posts on this bbs or related bbs as well as others where Japanese ask for the user to stop with its use and flames rise. I mean who are you to argue with the person whom that derogatory word was used against?? its like telling a Korean Gook isn't derogatory. And as what was said earlier I do not get why those so devoted to a medium and culture yet are still so hateful towards them. I often see toshiaki on futaba and elsewhere making "fucking jap" or "damn jap" and even DIE JAP post when mimicking Americans. To me this is harsh because they are getting the wrong impression. As well this relates to the uses of hentai ecchi etc. It is funny how misunderstandings cause such grief or weird outcomes.
I don't mean to bring up racism but its just a topic to open against in the fact we butcher old meanings in our own language or bring across the wrong impression to others. This as well makes me wonder as to the REAL reason futaba has non .jp ip banned from posting. I do not intend to start arguments and will ignore any that will IE I wont respond. nut its to just bring up subject material and a few ideas/opinions.
Oh and I know orphan meant a broken paragraph. I is I guess why we have thesaurus.
Please try to write coherently if you're making an argument. I have no idea what you're going on about most of the time. What I did manage to understand I'll answer:
> Hence in Chobits Erosito or erotica site. I probably would translate it as such, not the porn site or hentai site that I had seen on fansubs.
No, "ero" means means almost exactly the same as "porn". The translation "porn site" is entirely correct.
> To me >>54 closed this argument. It is the way we "old-timers" used the words, if we used them at all. And hentai is suppose to be used as a description not a noun or name for something. ( I think this is what >>54 meant in his/her first line)
You seem to be confused about one thing. This isn't a discussion about how you "old-timers" use words. This is a discussion about how the japanese use the words. >>54 is japanese. He's upset that westerners use the word "hentai" in such a weird way. Read the articles linked at the top of the thread, and you'll find a lot more comments by japanese speakers about how silly the western usage of the word "hentai" is.
I don't think I've seen anyone bullied for that, not by image board standards. People get corrected, but that's hardly bullying.
Also, word filters are insulting.
>You seem to be confused about one thing. This isn't a discussion about how you "old-timers" use words. This is a discussion about how the japanese use the words. >>54 is japanese. He's upset that westerners use the word "hentai" in such a weird way. Read the articles linked at the top of the thread, and you'll find a lot more comments by japanese speakers about how silly the western usage of the word "hentai" is.
His point was though, that they "old-timers" used it as a description, closer to the Japanese meaning, and that the younger genration of non-Japanese anime watchers started calling things that as a name.
...Or at least that's what I got from it.
Personally though, I started calling ero-stuff "Hentai" since that's what I thought it was called. That's what everyone else called it, and thus for Americans, that isi what it was called.
I wasn't studying Japnese culture, and didn't even know much about Japan. So, you really can't blame people like us, the people who don't go and research everything themselves if they've heard 1000 other people confirm it.
The way I see things like "hentai" or "otaku" or various other American adopted Japanese phrase is, that's exactly what it is. An "American adopted Japanese phrase." Although people who want to learn more about Japan/plan to visit Japan should know the true meanings, for people who don't, it doesn't really matter.
And Japanese is the last language people should complain about Non-Japanese bastardizing. I mean... "Free Size" ? and WTF is Milky Hat?
> And Japanese is the last language people should complain about Non-Japanese bastardizing.
I don't feel like refuting all of your statements right now, but this one is the most ridiculous one and has been adressed multiple times before: You cannot justify your own incorrect usage of someone else's language with that language's incorrect usage of your own language. Not that you could even say that the Japanese who would complain about your incorrect usage are the same who supposedly "bastardized" your language, nor that it's only the Japanese who (would) complain about that - it's also people like me (neither Japanese nor English nor American, but I don't like intercultural ignorance and I don't care for "but they started it first" kindergarten arguments)
>And Japanese is the last language people should complain about Non-Japanese bastardizing. I mean... "Free Size" ? and WTF is Milky Hat?
QFT.
English gives false meanings to a lot of words. It is known quite widely now; it's evolution of language.
Yes, it is a valid argument, because it's hypocritical for someone who is clearly not worried about their misuse of my language to get all in a huff over my misuse of theirs. There's also a huge discrepancy in the level of "bastardization" going on; "hentai" is a relatively rare word in English compared to how often Japanese use "mansion" for an apartment building, say "(something) getto!," or even go to a "viking" to have a buffet meal. And we will never come out with a cartoon about crossdressing and call it "Watashi Watashi Watashi no! Ichigo Tamago."
So as a professional linguist (of sorts), I declare this whole discussion stupid in the first place.
> Yes, it is a valid argument, because it's hypocritical for someone who is clearly not worried about their misuse of my language to get all in a huff over my misuse of theirs.
You are massively confusing issues here:
> So as a professional linguist (of sorts)
I lolled
HENTAI! KAWAII! BUKKAKE!
http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hkb3ga.png
PS: imageshack seems to automatically disable viewing of pictures that have "hentai" or "bukkake" in their name.
>It is not the Japanese who are majorly complaining here.
You're right; it seems to be otaku who are complaining because a few Japanese are complaining, as translated in >>4. And they must be right and correct because they are Japanese.
>There is no way for you to verify if the Japanese who do complain are the same who make the errors themselves.
At the level that my above examples are seemingly embedded into the Japanese language, I'm pretty sure that would be the case. Regardless.
>None of the issues are reven remotely touching the objective reasoning that the specific use of the specific word "hentai" in the English context is incorrect.
No, but it is touching the fact that only wankers really care about it.
> You're right; it seems to be otaku who are complaining because a few Japanese are complaining, as translated in >>4. And they must be right and correct because they are Japanese.
Your anti-wapanese sentiment is silly.
> No, but it is touching the fact that only wankers really care about it.
Okay, then please stop posting in this thread, wanker.
Member of the Anti-Hentai club: Dear Japanese, don't you think that from a grammmalological viewpoint, we the Westerners are so silly to use the word "hentai" in such a risible fashion?
Toshiaki: I don't care how it's called, just post the pictures!
:)
>>134 gets it!
Member of the Anti-Anti-Hentai club: Dear professional linguist, I am lazy and don't want to change my behaviour, despite how incorrect it may be.
Professional linguist (of sorts): That's okay, language evolves all the time. It's a living thing, mang! Logic has nothing on this beast! And just like women, it only exists to promote your sloth!
sometimes I look at some of the things said and really wonder about the school system these days. but what can I say when literacy rates are so so low.
I will agrea with the evolution of language and the borowing of language. english after all is made up of 7. as for the use of hentai beeing ok or not, well, that has changed over time too. it was mentiond before how it wasn't used the same way it is now several years ago. I would say this is because moest people in the past knew, watched, and were intrested in anime and manga because they were allready surddying japanese and the culture, that is at least my understanding. or, were othwise part of an asian heritage, or living on the pasific coast. yes hentai is the wrong usage. will the usage be fixed when using it in english context? no. not unless you can get the countless milions to change.
but there are lots of missuesd words. anime beeing short for animation was before mentiond. in a sence I guess its true. though anime is aslo just animation in french I beleiv. in english it is used to mean japanese animation in order to diferentiate it from american or european animation. but does anyone remember the term japanamation? people tried to coin that, it faild.
manga, comic, does it matter? I mean Ive had my head bitten off practicly for calling a 'graphic novel' a comic, and no I don't mean manga. I remember when manga wasn't used, it was just graphic novels but then there was a desire to make it difrent then the american comics. I think some of that was due to the fact in the begining it was doing well among girls who were a verry low seller for american comics. so they removed it as much as posible. I wonder if manwa will now be used more so its not confused with manga? 'god forbid japanese comics and korean comics get mixed up!'
other words misued from english basterdasation, yaoi and yuri. Ive seen people discribe yaoi as "gay men" now, how wrong is that? since yaoi is an acronym for more or less PWP 'plot what plot?' and if you mention this to the raving fan girl she will rip your head off and eat your heart while it still beats. and if you try to point out why its wrong she has some friend whos japanese and uses it that way. and you find out said friend just finds it easier to adapt for her and not correct her for japanese usage, but to leave it as american usage. but, I won't start a 'the correct and incorrect ways to discribe gay male anime, manga, doujinshi, and games' discution.
in the end, though this sounds like a cop out, we are all wrong. the japanese find us odd and a litte frightening for what we focuse on. we think there odd for using nonsence words on evorything or using words that discribe something else. the words are beeing taken and changed adapted and turnd to slang. this is the key here. slang. slang is never correct. slang has no meaning in a dictionary untill someone finaly goes 'they this words been around for a while in the pop cuture lets put it in' slang can be anything the users want it to be.
an example of turms used horibly wrong. a few years back I remember reading a small artical, or perhaps I heard it on the radio. but the point is this happend. india, the entire country, band one of the austin power movies, the spy who shaged me. now america was like 'whats wrong with them?' and india was like 'how horibly ofensive to have in the title!' wich if you think about it is rather awful. it shows how lack our culture (by wich I mean americans and thoughs greatly infulenced by them) is with stuff like that. I remember hearing on the radio, yes it was one of thoughs boring npr type stations witht the bbc and cbc pbs npr people, this guy talking about the loose way the curent generation speaks, throwing otherwise curs words this way and that. this was a british program by the way. now I try not to stray to far off topic but I hope it all brings my point through, I'm sorry if it doesn't. that as said before language is a flowing breathing living growing thing. now instead of arguing how to use hentai within the enlgish language, why not simply use it in acordance with japanese language only when speaking to japanese. and I would expect them, to eccept what is beeing used on english boreds.
That argument would carry more weight if the Toshiaki weren't constantly making fun of westerners for saying "hentai".
>>140
To be fair, making fun of something doesn't neccessarily imply that they really care about the issue.
However, it's already been said that this isn't about us westerners getting together to fulfill an expressed request made to us by some Japanese but rather coming to terms with erroneous usage of language which is most apparent in intercultural dialogue and which both us and the Japanese are aware of.
So far, it seems that the only general stances against a more correct usage of language in these issues are that
Feel free to correct and/or amend me here.
>>140 Bull.
My understanding is that they are using it jokingly, for example as a reference to anime/manga where the girl is protesting to the guy for showing sexual interest. It's like winking at the audience, and the audience is other Japanese. It is NOT intended at an English speaking audience. They don't care what the English speakers think, the English speakers are not even supposed to speak on 2ch anyway.
At most, English speakers are viewed as partners to practice one's own English. "Hey look, I know a few English words: MOE! Hentai! Otintin! Now, please praise me!" :)
>>138 >anime is aslo just animation in french I beleiv
Wrong. Animation in French is Animation.
I would make more of an effort to understand what you said if you used proper spelling.
>>140
I agree with >>141. I mean, you always hear us talking about "those crazy Japanese," but do we really care about their use of our language?
Well, we might find it funny/weird and/or wrong, and if they specifically asked us what we thought about the improper use of a certain phrase we would most likely speak against it, but none of us will probably start an educating campaign against certain words.
>>142
You are either confusing Futaba Channel with 2ch or are unaware of 2ch not being an abbreviation for Futaba Channel.
> My understanding is that they are using it jokingly
That's what "making fun of" means, no?
> I agree with >>141. I mean, you always hear us talking about "those crazy Japanese," but do we really care about their use of our language?
We care to the extent that we like to make fun of them. That's all I said they were doing, too.
That was my whole point. Sling said they "don't care", I returned that they care enough to make fun of it. If they didn't care, they wouldn't joke about it. We care about the Japanese mis-using English to the point that there are websites devoted to it. We don't care about many other languages mis-using English (and many do), so we don't make jokes about those.
>We care to the extent that we like to make fun of them.
mmm... But my point was that I think we may not necessarily care at all.
People link/send me funny pictures and video clips all the time.
I don't really have to care about who/what the subject is about to find the humor in it.
>>149
The absence of any care at all is apathy.
You don't laugh about things you feel apathetic about.
"Anime" is the English word "animation" with the unpronounceable final syllable dropped. The French word is spelled with an accent: "anime´."
× anime´
○ animé
And "animé" means "animated", not "animation".
>>150, is the problem ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care.
Language is a convention made by humans, for humans in a closed society. Now that is the same for imported words from every foreign country.
Well, it's due to the universality of language that many misinterpretations are made and makes the situation all .. weird.
Maybe we all need to learn what languages are for.
Did you have a point, or do you just like listening to yourself talk?
> Maybe we all need to learn what languages are for.
> listening to yourself talk
perhaps that is because it is a tired subject. you either like it or you don't, and no amount of talking about it is going to make any difference. so fap to it, or don't.
doesn't hentai also mean "abnormal" or "sick"? ("sick" as in "I got the flu" not "OMGBOOBIES!!!11oneoneLOLKOLOLOL!!")
I was watching a japanese tv show with english subtitles - i swear I heard "hentai" somewhere in there as the dude went to hospital... and another time when it was used for "weird" or "strange"...
I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "sick", in that sense.
>>162
I bet you heard "hen", which just means "strange".
Hello languagelog readers. This is a web sight. Let's be friends.
No thank you #166. Since this IS a website, I'm afraid I have to kill you. Wait just a minute, I'll throw a knife at you via the internet connection!!
Does this mean the language log guy browses imageboards?
Be still my beating heart.
Probably has more to do with this thread being linked from Wikipedia. Well, I do enjoy languagelog from time to time, so I'm happy about getting a link.
I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentaigana while reading the article about that IME thing.
From it:
> Note that this hentai (変体: "variants") is not the same word as the hentai (変態) from which the English slang term is derived.
More evidence that hentai can mean different things, I guess.
>>170 That's a litle different, though: different word construction altogether.
Yes, Japanese contain innumerable homophones. This is seldom relevant in any way.
>>176
H = Ecchi
it's not the abbreviation of your 'Hentai'.
Is it werid I thought it pronounced hental?
Is it weird I thought it pronounced hental?
hentai? in one piece when franky said it i thought it ment transform 0_o
some one please answer these qeustions
what are the differences between henshin, hentai, and hengei
henshin - transform
hentai - pron (at least in the us)
hengei - ????
> hentai - pron (at least in the us)
Somehow I think he was asking about Japanese, not English.
Just my OP.
ecchi - No visible women nipples or anus and genitalia of either gender. Maybe cameltoe, poking-up tits under clothes, and bulging can be acceptable ecchi. It is called "ecchi" after all. (Used in sentence: "Not sure exactly how it looked, the details were ecchi.)
Hentai - Every part of the body can be exposed and captured in every position and usage.
Just my OP.
ecchi - No visible women nipples or anus and genitalia of either gender. Maybe cameltoe, poking-up tits under clothes, and bulging can be acceptable ecchi. It is called "ecchi" after all. (Used in sentence: "Not sure exactly how it looked, the details were ecchi.)
Hentai - Every part of the body can be exposed and captured in every position and usage.
Please read the fucking thread before posting, OK? Make the tiniest little effort.
>>198-198
Please read your post before posting, OK?
Make the tiniest little effort.
hentai?
My Japnese means the word weaker than eccentric.
you know, if you say me hentai, I will smile you.
The word is used as erotic.
>>197
ecchi?
My country japan uses as sex and sexual.
you know, this behavior and word.
Sex is not used usually.
This is why that word is beyond moral.
>>197
ecchi?
My country japan uses as sex and sexual.
you know, this behavior and word.
Sex is not used usually.
This is why that word is beyond moral.
hentai is SEXY!!!!!
englich basis words are more known then japanse ones (are really japanse for hentai, ecchi O_O awesome XD )
but ecchi is like hentai i call more topless or almost no clothers pll =_=
We've really got some brilliant minds in this here thread now.
what hentai make you minds more smarty =_=
誰もここで私を理解しません :'(
(ーー;)
i like hentai hentai is not the thread u are the fucking thread all can go to hellv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
i like hentai hentai is not the thread u are the fucking thread all can go to hellv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Hentaimedia is restricted in Japan. It is not possible to export to the
United States any longer.
It is an electric wave woman who says unknown nationality Agnes Chang and
Unicef Association of Japan (an irrelevant cult group to UNICEF of the United
Nations) that try to restrict.
Because Japanese Government wants also to market Csoga Csomanga that China
and South Korea are trivial, it begins to assist, and please ..state of
annihilation.. have and help.
well you're right i love hentai but some kinda of virus had make my com sick T_T that's all bye love but have virus~
sling is dead
>>222
Untrue. He posts on iichan's news all the time.
This is a natural process. Most words that are "imported" from other languages changes their meaning.
/fotos/snes/0/811_t/Foto+Hebereke+no+Popoon+(Japon%E9s).jpg){kind=link}
