Since this was being discussed in another thread where it was totally off-topic, I think it's time for it to have its own thread. Here we discuss the word "lolikon", and the difference in meaning between the original Japanese word and the English usage of it.
http://wakaba.c3.cx/soc/kareha.pl/1121956450/105
previous discussion: http://wakaba.c3.cx/soc/kareha.pl/1121956450/61-92
Okay, reiteration of earlier statements.
English:
Lolikon has been appropriated to mean anything underage, with catchcries such as "it's a valid target once it's out of the womb!" and whatnot. We're covering pedophilia and ephebophilia here.
Japanese:
I admit no real knowledge of how the Japanese interpret it to be meant, but I understand it was probably taken to refer to puberty and onwards. Anyway able to clarify?
Also requesting that people don't attempt to bring firm age boundaries into the discussion. They're somewhat meaningless, and attempting to apply your local jurisdiction is even sillier.
Fun fact: "lol" is a common Japanese abbrevation for "Lolita" on the internet.
Just get them to add the "i" and we'll be speaking the same language.
>>5
You are wrong, wrong, wrong. The English and Japanese phrases have the same meaning, except the English one is restricted to anime for 4chan reasons.
Take for example the Japanese parody song "Boku wa Lolicon":
"The girls that I like are children... playing in the sandbox (etc.)... I have the lolicon"
Also look in an early translated volume of Dragonball Z for a translated use of "lolicon".
> 4chan reasons
laffo
The anime porn site that is infamous for abusing japanese memes and language is now an authoritative source of linguistical correctness?
To some people, apparently.
"restricted for 4chan reasons" doesn't really imply authority or correctness. Popularity, perhaps.
"4chan reasons" on its own is a hilarious term.
I will use it from now on to explain the inexplicable.
A: Why did the chicken cross the road?
B: FOR 4CHAN REASONS, YOU IDIOT!
Very nice, guys, however...
Requesting confirmation or otherwise that what >>8 said about "loli" also being able to mean "toddler-kon" (for the Japanese) is true.
And saying it's restricted to anime is meaningless. We're asking about what it means (is interpreted as) in general, to both cultures.
>>13
Here's the lyrics for you:
http://alicek.hp.infoseek.co.jp/kasi02.html
partial translation:
The girls that I like are children.
Although my mother leans over, saying, "No! That's awful",
All that "boing-boing" leaves me unsatisfied.
I love helpless children.
[...]
LO * LI * I * TA! I've got a Loli Con!
LO * LI * I * TA! I'm a dangerous onii-san!
"Mommy went out to a meeting. Come and play in the sandbox with me!
"It's hot! I'm taking off my clothes!" [I will stop here]
Also, 4 fun, try adding "ロリ" to your Share clusters and see what sort of movies you find.
Haha, funny song.
Some more:
Lo Li I Ta
I'm abnormal
Lo Li I Ta
I'm also a degenerate, don't you think?
Okay, that was amusing. I'm just not sure how it added to our conversation...
It's a counter-example to your assumption here:
> I admit no real knowledge of how the Japanese interpret it to be meant, but I understand it was probably taken to refer to puberty and onwards.
In case that doesn't convince you, here's the Japan Times:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20040427zg.htm
I wouldn't believe anything that you see on www.japantimes.co.jp. They are NOTORIOUSLY anti-pornography of ANY form, so I wouldn't count on them being fair towards lolicon or other pornography.
this is how i've seen it:
loli - exclusively used as abbreviation of lolita
lolicon/lolikon - abbreviation of lolita complex
In English, i've seen "loli" be mainly used to refer to underage and sexually underdeveloped (if it's reached puberty, it's no longer qualified as loli) 2d female child characters. However also seen real children be jestingly referred to as loli.
I don't frequent pedo/lolicon places, though i've stumbled across some people like that in my days (4chan is one of the places) and i've met a few lolicons online.
Seems to me as if there are strong subgroups of lolicon-ness. Being a lolicon seems an efficient gateway to genuine pedophilia. In my opinion, being a lolicon is something that makes you part pedo and likely to turn you completely pedo, however doesn't make you pedo right from the start, only almost.
The subgroups i've noticed are
1) people with an interest in the "genuine" article too
2) people denying that their loliconness has anything to do with real children
3) people who get turned off at the more realistical human loli drawings and fwap at the more abstract, iconic and cartoony styled lolis.
The last group has strong resemblance in my opinion, to the group of people in western fantasy culture that have tiny elves as fantasy. They don't really see them as human, but as some sort of alien and unhuman cuteness.
As i've seen it, toddlercon is a subset of lolikon/shotacon, and if the female not only reached puberty but also is above the age that qualifies you as an adult, she's pretty much a "granny" in the eyes of the lolicon.
I have very little knowledge of lolicon/loli terminiology and status in japanese.
I would also like to point out that the >>19
link has very true bits in it.
"Also, I sense that there is a deep subliminal anxiety expressed in male cultural imagination about the otherwise rather obfuscated history of violent maltreatment and female bondage in Japan. You can see a fairly exclusively male fantasy of girl revolution and revenge both in the reportage on offensive and sexually angry young girls, and in gun-wielding liberatory Lolita figures."
That article wasn't very anti-porn/loli at all. More fair and balanced than most other articles on the same topic.
I don't think they have difrent meanings. japan just has more sub catagorys. over int he hentai discution it was mention lolicon is simply from lolita compex, wich originated from a book. by the way I beleive lolita, the girl in the book, was between 10 and 12. the term then started to be used for adult men who were intrested to little girls sexualy. now, genuinly it was not used to mean todlers. children yes, prepubesent? moestly. pretty much I would say is she is 20, or in some cases 10 years or more younger, it is a lolita complex. is it the same as pedophilia? I will say no. the difrence? with lolitas the idea is the girl, though far too young. is still enticing you. she is activly trying to get you. usualy. though it has been used for people who simply go seaking younger girls. but, the girls in the end are willing. this I will say is the fundamental difrence. now, I could be wrong. I've never really thought about this.
but now for how lolicon has been used in japanese and english. lolicon can be inocent. it can simply be you like how young girls look. you like cute things. not nesisaraly in a sexual way. like the gothic lolita trend. first seeing the githic lolita bible, and its title. I was unsure what it was trying to do, that is from a purly english point of view. but in the end, (reguardless of any fetishes and the such that people may use it for.) its simply a fasion trend. and, japan as a whole is obsessed with cute.
but then theres the lolicon that is for sexual perposes. wich is outright pedophilia no matter what people try and hide under. yes there are some grey areas, but the out and out sexualy explicit ones arn't and I would say as a whole both sides feel the same on that.
now, in japan lolicon can be fore living breithing little girls. if is any intrest in young girls drawn or not. now here we have taken lolicon, removed it from lolita complex, (because thats not good you know?) and made it more strictly for drawn little girls. and yes I know 4chan will call any little girl real or not loli, but thats 4chan and there odd, and at the same time its internet subculture wich in a sence, no one takes as real. you are talking to people you do not really know, looking at pictures if actual photos are of people far far away from you. so in a sence I would say it still not in the real catagory. and one must wonder how manny people are truely that deap or just spouting the words?
I would say they both have fundamentaly the same meaning. eccept we have made it for the dirtiest aspect while in japan it has far more levals.
>>24
Too many words with horrible spelling and grammar.
I am tired of reading about this topic anyway.
Moving to more fertile debate grounds: How does anyone here feel about the way the industry seems to be catering more and more to the lolicon crowd (i.e., shows like Ichigo Mashimaro and countless shows that have at least some degree of loli-centered fanservice)?