Does anyone know the names of these adorable mini-pickups some characters drive in the story?
- Loran Gayton
Wednesday, February 11, 2004
To answer my own question, it seems they are a collection of "kei class" pickups (less than 360cc). Most of these are cab-over designs. The engines are just in front of the rear axle under the bed.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mjs/cabover.html
One unusual little truck is the one driven by the customers in the watermelon episode.
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume1/77
I think it is suppose to be a Toyopet SB (Toyota) from around 1950.
http://www.ies-geneve.ch/2000gt/Histoire/Toyota/SB_48.jpg
I wonder what sort of scooter Alpha is riding?
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 12, 2004
When I visited Tokyo, I saw a few brand-new, but 50s looking cars. Small roundish toys, two- and three-tone pastels. Otherwise, no old cars or trucks. At least nothing that looked familiar (which is difficult, since most Japanese cars aren't exported to the US).
Anyone know if it's true that no one buys used cars, so everything is recycled?
- Steven Austin
Friday, February 13, 2004
Howdy,
The way Japanese auto laws are written encourages folks to buy new cars rather than hang on to old ones. Essentially, you must get your car inspected (and fix anything wrong) every two years. This process is expensive. After a car is over ten years old, you must get the inspections yearly.
This encourages the domestic market, and as a side effect, tends to keep old vehicles off the road. Most of these used cars are exported to Russia or the Middle East.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Friday, February 13, 2004
Yes, I have read that loads of used Japanese cars are exported all over the globe. Unfortunately, very few end up over here. You can get slightly used Japanese engines, however.
Over in Oregon, a tractor dealer is selling container loads of used Kei Class trucks for off-road use.
http://www.best-used-tractors.com/mini_truck.html
- Loran Gayton
Friday, February 13, 2004
Kokone's scooter is difficult to identify--looks similiar to any stock. I'd guess wildly it's either based on Vestpa or Lambretta scooters.
Alpha's one should be easier, front is more distinct, but I haven't found a good match yet.
- royalfool
Friday, February 13, 2004
Just one last tidbit, I'd doubt anyone could find the exact model, there are too many similiarities and clones that exist in the market. Prove me wrong though.
royalfool
- royalfool
Friday, February 13, 2004
There is something interesting about the scooters.
Kokone's scooter has a classic Italian scooter configuration (step-through frame, fairing to protect legs, etc.).
Alpha's scooter, however, is an obscure configuration. The main down tube goes straight from the front fork pivot to the engine assembly. There is no fairing that is typically installed on scooters. I cannot find a prototype for this scooter. I wonder if the author has hidden some meaning in the form of Alpha's scooter. Is she a pre-production prototype riding a pre-production prototype? Is this a modified scooter? Is this a type of scooter that is suppose to excite the imagination of scooter aficionados?
By the way, take a look at these sites:
http://kiwat.com/isetta/midgetcars/index.htm
http://www.scorgiefamily.com/Skorji/scoot%20stuff.htm
http://www.microcar.org/ourcars.html
- Loran Gayton
Tuesday, February 17, 2004
Come to think of it, Alpha's scooter is very odd. It has a front end like a motorize bicycle (Moped) or motorcycle. The rear end is built like a scooter.
Weird scooter.
- Loran Gayton
Tuesday, February 17, 2004
Is it possible Alpha's scooter is just missing some bits of bodywork?
- Kurt H. Krohn
Thursday, February 19, 2004
Yes. However, the center tube is straight and that is unusual. Most of the scooters with fairings have frames that are deeply curved. Alpha's scooter requires her to straddle the tube as you would do on a motorcycle or moped. In addition to that, the front wheel forks are not characteristic of most scooters. Some were built that way, but most imitated the Vespa and Lambretta style of front end suspension.
It is also possible it is a modified Vespa or something of the sort. It looks as though someone wanted a moped front end and a Vespa-style rear end.
I spent some time clicking through web sites of old Japanese scooter enthusiasts. I see a lot of odd looking scooters, but nothing like Alpha's.
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 19, 2004
No real progress to report, but I did find this 3D model:
http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~bitpool/3DCG_image/bike_0008.jpg
More stuff at:
http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~bitpool/3DCG.html
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 19, 2004
Howdy,
The 3-D models are nice, but somehow, I imagine the scooter to be a bit more scuffed up. :)
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Thursday, February 19, 2004
Well, she does polish it a lot.
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 19, 2004
I'm a motorcyclist with 22 years riding experience. I have numerous books and magazines on motorcycles and scooters. My opinion is that Alpha's scooter is fictitious. I've never seen anything like it, either on the road or in any of my books. The Dregni Brother's Illustrated Motorscooter Buyer's Guide is the book to get if you're interested. The only ones I've seen that were even remotely close were the US built Auto-Glides of the late '30 which had the straight downtube. The Italian Nibbio of the late '40s had the rounded body, but not the straight downtube.
As for the pickups, I'm afriad I'm not as good at identifying Japanese-market models that were never exported as I'd like to be. Printed material on them in English is sadly lacking. I can say that Kei class cars used to have a 360cc limit, but it was upped to 600ccs in the 70's, and it's now 660ccs and has been for about 20 years.
- martialstax
Friday, February 20, 2004
Going back to old cars in Japan, as I recall not only do older models require frequent inspection but their insurance rates increase drastically. A fifties era delivery truck would be an expensive vehicle to own.
- Other Dave
Friday, February 20, 2004
I think the Nibbio is close, very close.
http://www.scootermaniac.org/modules.php?name=marques&marque=55
I will prowl around in scootermaniac.org a bit and see what I can find.
- Loran Gayton
Friday, February 20, 2004
Okay, you may be right. I've scanned all the pictures in scootermania.org and I can not find a scooter like Alpha's. It's a 50cc Nonesuch Vaporglide.
It is either:
1. a prototype
2. a custom job
3. a very rare model
4. a fictional scooter dreamed up by the author
I have no data, but just like Pres. Bush, I have faith. I just know it's out there somewhere. Just as he continues to believe in the WMDs, I shall continue my quest for the Alpha's Mysterymobile.
The author went to so much trouble to set his story in a familar landscape. He also took great pains to draw featured props (the AT6, the Walther, etc.). It would break the pattern to then put his main character asride a non-existent scooter.
Some things I noticed.
a. The configuration of the front wheel is not unusual in scooter designs. The early Fuji Rabbits and Kawaskis had similar front ends. The big difference is that straight down tube. Could this be a prototype from the Fuji Rabbit line (circa 1954)? See the Fuji Rabbit S-31
http://www.fujirabbit.com/pages/Range.html
See also the 1954 Kawasaki
http://www.scootermaniac.org/modules.php?name=modeles&tri=pays&pays=12
Click on the one Kawasaki entry.
b. The configuration of the rear end suggests a sophisticated small engine compartment. Less sophistcated designs have bulky shrouded compartments in front of the rear wheel. Alpha sits almost above the rear wheel axle.
c. There were many really ugly scooters in the past. The scooter business seemed to attract the deranged and aesthetically challenged.
d. The silliest scooter has to be the infamous War Vespa. No really! This really was a Scooter of Mass Destruction! It was made for the French Army. It was used by paratroopers. They mounted a recoiless rifle on a 150cc Vespa. Yes, really! Go look:
http://www.scootermaniac.org/modules.php?name=modeles&tri=pays&pays=8
Click on the ACMA Tap 50
- Loran Gayton
Friday, February 20, 2004
I searched through my scooter books last night (I have 5) and still couldn't find anything. I have a couple years worth of a scootering magazine that I'll pull out of whatever box I've got them stored in and see what I can find.
I don't thing the Fuji or Kawasaki are quite it. There are three things to look for. The rounded body, the straight tube from the steering head directly into the bodywork, and the bicycle-style front forks. Instead of traditional triple clamps at the steering head, there is a single steering tube, with the forks branching off under it, just like on a bicycle.
It's true that Ashinano uses a lot of real identifiable objects in his manga, but Alpha's scooter is almost the first thing we see. It may be that he drew it before settling on his apparent policy of basing everything on real items. I'm sure Ojisan's tractor and pickup, as well as Maruko's worktruck, are all real vehicles. I'm pretty sure the motorcycles of Ojisan and Sensei all those years ago are real as well. In fact, that's my next project. I'm going to try to definitively pin down what they are.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure Kokone's scooter is an original creation of Ashinano's, too.
- martialstax
Saturday, February 21, 2004
Howdy,
>d. The silliest scooter has to be the infamous War Vespa.
This made my day. I haven't been so tickled by an absurd projectile weapons since the chicken cannon.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Saturday, February 21, 2004
@Loran
> The configuration of the rear end suggests a sophisticated small engine compartment. Less sophistcated designs have bulky shrouded compartments in front of the rear wheel. Alpha sits almost above the rear wheel axle.
Not just that, the tank is under her seat, too, leaving no place for the engine. IMHO it is sitting on the axis (right side) of the rear wheel, on the left you will probably find a spare wheel - classic Vespa style.
- Rainer
Sunday, February 22, 2004
I agree. The engine must be similar to the Vespa.
Let's see...
1. Exhaust on the right side.
2. Bulge protruding below the fairing on the left side.
3. Gas cap (and tank?) under the seat.
4. No openings on the right side for cooling the engine as on the Vespa. The cooling inlet is on the front left side. Therefore engine on the left.
5. Engine does not protrude under the fairing as much as on the Vespa
6. Electric starter
7. Tire diameter larger than the Vespa
8. Seat platform does not extend as far forward as on the Vespa.
- Loran Gayton
Monday, February 23, 2004
HAJIMEMASHITE (^^)
Please let me say a word about the motorbike of YOKOHAMA.
The design motif of the Alpha's scooter is in LITTLEHONDA (HONDA) and TOWNY (YAMAHA).
It is not VESPA.
As for the design of the Kokone's scooter, the thing of LITTLE CUB (HONDA) is taken in.
Reference
http://www.honda.co.jp/pressroom/library/motor/scooter/pal/index.html
Piroshi...(from Japan)
http://wwwbitpool.jp
- Piroshi Sakamoto
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
> I agree. The engine must be similar to the Vespa.
Domo;-)
> 2. Bulge protruding below the fairing on the left side.
Yeah, I missed that, but one http://ykk.misago.org/Volume1/17 ist's quite noticable.
> 5. Engine does not protrude under the fairing as much as on the Vespa
Well, there had to be some improvement since 1946, so it's smaller by now;-)
> 7. Tire diameter larger than the Vespa
Yes, probably 15", although the rear tire sometimes appears to be a bit smaller - 13", perhaps? This would leave space for the tank.
> 8. Seat platform does not extend as far forward as on the Vespa.
it's a 1.5-seater;-)
*If* the tires are of different size I'm even more convinced it's a chimera, combining a bike (or moped) with a scooter - the front fork and main tube are so massive! OTOH it's so detailed, down to the blank plate preventing varnish abraison on the main tube, Ashinano-sensei may have portrait a real-life mod job in his neighborhood or a detailed design study - coming from a airplane parts design family has it's virtues, I think.
- Rainer
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
Thanks, Piroshi!
I found the Honda corporation's museum web site:
http://www.honda.co.jp/collection-hall/Search/index.html
Their early scooters were big and had the engine in front of the rear axle. At some time in the 60' or 70's, they started making little scooters with the engines on the left side and exhaust on the right (just like Alpha's).
Their front fork and frame configurations for their small motorcycles and mopeds match the construction Alpha's scooter. This similarity is more pronounced in recent years.
I can not find any indication of a period when they mated the moped front end to a scooter rear end. I think we are on trail, however. There is a good possibility that Alpha's scooter is a Honda prototype from the late 60's (when they started the series of scooters with left side engines) or a recent prototype (using parts from the LittleHonda).
- Loran Gayton
Tuesday, February 24, 2004
I think Ojisan's pickup is a Kurogane. There is a good view of it in the story about the beach near Sensei's house:
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume2/102
A pickup that resembles it closely is in the background in one of the pictures on this web site:
http://www7.plala.or.jp/shinkido/tz2000.htm
The web site is devoted, however, to the three wheeled Kurogane pickups. This four wheeled model does not have the same doors as Ojisan's pickup. His pickup cab is set back from the front axle. Perhaps this was an oversite by the artist or it is an different model. Other close matches with doors set to the rear of the front axle are in the photos on:
http://www7.plala.or.jp/shinkido/cg.htm
Yes, I am getting a bit silly about this.
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 26, 2004
Or maybe it's a Toyota Toyoace from the 1961 to 1967 period.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ip3t-nksn/Pages/B-classic/Qrp610.htm
It looks too big, however.
- Loran Gayton
Thursday, February 26, 2004
I think ojisan's pickup is closer to the Daihatsu Midget:
http://www.microcar.org/carspecs/daihatsumidgetII.html
- martialstax
Thursday, February 26, 2004
nope.. sorry, but it doesn't.
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume1/88
as u can see, the midget II has fender flares while ojiisan's is recessed into the chassis
- yooj
Thursday, February 26, 2004
okay, a little correction... i guess the fenders are quite similar, but the lights aren't protruding, they're recessed into the hood.. the bumper's not integrated into the body, and the overall front isn't curved in a continuous line, from the windshield to the hood.
sorry for the confusion
- yooj
Thursday, February 26, 2004
As for the small ute (Australian for 'pickup') that Maruko drives - that is a Suzuki Mity Boy. You'll only ever see them in Australia and Japan, except for a pair that were imported to America.
I drive one, and there are 4 others within about 2km of my home.
Very zippy for something with a 550cc engine!
-R
- Rob Masters
Friday, February 27, 2004
Check out this Honda brochure.
http://www.hondasportsregistry.com/brochures/brochs360t360s500.php
Scroll down to near the bottom. Doesn't the T360 truck look somewhat similar to Ojisan's truck? The biggest difference I can see is that the front of Ojisan's truck is a straight line. This Honda has an engine compartment that bulges forward just a little bit.
- martialstax
Wednesday, March 3, 2004
I agree that the dimensions, doors, and outline fit the Honda T360. However, the T360 hood sticks out whereas Ojisan's pickup has a flat, sloping front end.
It is so close that I am willing to think that the author merged two different K-class trucks together in his imagination.
And now, for something completely different:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/vespalnr.jpg
- Loran
Wednesday, March 3, 2004
It looks like an SS180 Vespa with streamliner bodywork. Next to it is a Messerschmidt KR200 Kabinenroller, and in front of the Messerschmidt is an early Vespa.
- martialstax
Wednesday, March 3, 2004
Something just occured to me...
Martialstax earlier pointed out the similarity between Alpha's scooter and the 1947 Gianca Nibbio. This morning I realized that the "Nibbio" is an Italian word for the raptor commonly called a Kite. These birds are grouped in the family Accipitridae. This family includes the Osprey. The Japanese variety of Osprey is called the Misago (Pandion haliaetus)
Nibbios come in three varieties: black winged (Elanus caeruleus), black (Milvus migrans), and red (Milvus Regalis).
One note I found concerning the Black Kite said that it was "a bird of prey which frequents sheets of water."
- Loran
Monday, March 8, 2004
Somehow, I wandered into a collection of Motoguzzi pictures. Cringe, ye puny mortals, before the awesome insanity of the Motoguzzi Halftrack!
http://www.bikemenu.com/photos/trikeswork/mil-old-motoguzzi.jpg
- Loran
Monday, March 8, 2004
Rainer mentioned that this thread was sleeping. Well, I have been poking around the web for more information about the vehicles. The scooter remains as elusive as ever.
Ojisan's pickup appears to be a 1959 Kurogane KB pickup (or possibly a 1961 Subaru Sambar). The features that identify it are:
A. The flat, sloping front end
B. The dimensions
C. The single windshield wiper mounted in the center of the windshield
D. Prominent door hinges in the rear
E. Door handles in the front
F. Air intake on the side of the bed indicating a rear engine.
The author appears to have made one error. The doors on Ojisan's pickup are to the rear of the front wheels. On the Kurogane KB and Sambar, the doors straddle the wheel wells. Also, the real trucks did not have such pronounced fender flares over the wheels. I guess the author exagerated some features to make the truck look more kawaii.
The real trucks:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mjs/cabover.html
(scroll down to Kurogane)
http://www.subaru-global.com/about/history/1961-001.html
Ojisan's pickup:
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume2/102
So in this case, the author drew a truck that is very similar to, but not rigourously identical, to two K-class trucks of the early sixties. He is definately drawing on real examples but he is not drawing them as carefully as some other manga artists.
As for the scooter, I still think it is a Nibbio, but I can not find an image of any Gianca prototypes. In fact, I read that there are only three surviving examples of the Nibbio scooter. Any images of unproduced models will have to be old photographs in some history book.
I suspect he came across this scooter in some doujinshi published by scooter enthusiasts in Japan.
- Loran
Monday, March 29, 2004
I like the page with the kei-class mini-truck and mini-vans. Very useful. I recognize the Honda Vamos. It's featured prominently in both the Geobreeders anime and manga.
I think Alpha's scooter is only tenously based on the Nibbio, it at all. I think it's another case of Ashinano taking design elements from various sources and combining them into an original concept.
I wonder if anyone would ever actually make Alpha and Kokone's scooters?
- martialstax
Thursday, April 1, 2004
Scooter Cosplay?
- Loran
Thursday, April 1, 2004
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the thread is; is there such a thing as an electric scooter? I really like Kokone's little electric.
- Ian Darrow
Thursday, April 1, 2004
There are quite a few actually, the P-66 Vanguard, the Zap Lepton and Peugeot Scoot'elec to name three. Any search on Google will pull them up (though many will turn out to be electric push scooters). A sample page is at- http://www.electricscooters.la/electricscooters.html.
- Andy Tucker
Friday, April 2, 2004
Thanks for the new info, Loran.
I still bet 2 €-cent on Alpha's scooter being a mod job, but who nows - maybe someone should ask Asashino-san himself;-)
As for the electric scooters, I hope Kokkone's model has a wider reach than those, 30 - 40 miles might be a problem in this landscape.
- Rainer
Friday, April 2, 2004
"...maybe someone should ask Asashino-san himself"
But that would not be any fun!
- Loran
Friday, April 2, 2004
Just thought I'd post these pictures I took while visiting Vancouver, Canada. It's a 1972 Vespa, but as you can see I was reminded of my favorite manga!
1972 Vespa as part of a display in a clothing store:
http://ansuz.homelinux.net/~velusip/rnd/ykk/vespa.1972.1.jpg
http://ansuz.homelinux.net/~velusip/rnd/ykk/vespa.1972.2.jpg
http://ansuz.homelinux.net/~velusip/rnd/ykk/vespa.1972.3.jpg
- Velurajesh Shkandlar
Monday, October 25, 2004
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