Observations, if I may, in no particular order:
1) Alpha can experience unconcious dreaming.
2) Alpha went through a phase of development where, though her body was of an adult, her mind was very obviously that of a young child. At this stage, apparently limited descriptive ability to remark on the world around her. (red, etc).
3) Alpha may have been given a choice of whether to go with "master" or stay.
4) Her remarks on choosing to stay imply very limited contact with the world outside the cafe. Was she kept inside so as not to be overwhelmed with too many new experiences at once?
5) There was a caring relationship between Alpha/Master.
6) Alpha can experience thirst
7) Much of how she appears was determined specifically by master; ribbon, etc.
8) "Programming", at least from this, seems to be derived largely from vocal suggestion.
Late. -_- I'll come back after I've had some time to think more on this.
Certainly a pivotal chapter, as far as world revelations go.
- Luke
Wednesday, December 31, 2003
Thirst here also means here desire to learn new things, and I think this is the greater point here, since we already knew she could experience hunger (from her travels).
This was a wonderful strip. But, I think there is something sad about it. When she was young, she experienced wonder in everything around her house. She may not have noticed she was very alone. Now, though, after her years of growing close to Takahiro, Kokone and her travels, she may be thirsty for things she can't get around her house anymore.
- Steve Robinson
Wednesday, December 31, 2003
Howdy,
This chapter gives us a good deal of information about Alpha's early development along with her relationship with Owner. I suspect we may be on some sort of cusp as far as the story goes.
The change in Alpha's body language is really amazing in this chapter. In the beginning, she is very childlike, but when she models the ribbon, it's very adult.
Some other interesting points are that when she dreams that she is sitting at the table with coffee, there are two cups. She must have gotten the habit of sitting with people at her shop from these early experiences with Owner.
Also, she is looking at the fish weathervane before Owner leaves on his/her trip. So the fish motif might be Alpha's way of connecting with Owner's interest's/hobbys.
It's important to remember that "to thirst' has the meaning of "to thirst for knowledge" in English - but in Japanese it doesn't carry this connotation.
As an aside, in the margins it says "Next chapter: Maki comes to Cafe Alpha alone."
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Wednesday, December 31, 2003
The big revelation for me in this one was that Alpha stayed behind by choice. I hadn't anticipated that at all.
I also thought it was interesting to see some of Alpha's "childhood"; we've caught a glimpse of it before (the first time she went out in her new clothes), but this had much more detail.
I hadn't thought of the "thirst for knowledge" meaning of "I'm thirsty" when I chose that translation...I wonder if I should have gone with the more literal "my throat is dry"? (Japanese doesn't have a word for "thirsty".)
- dn
Wednesday, December 31, 2003
> Was she kept inside so as not to be overwhelmed with too many new experiences at once?
No it was by her choice to stay at the café as she was happy to explore the confines by herself slowly, you can note that she generally is much more explorative now and that the Owner (way back in the prequel) was happy to see she was finally going out and about.
> This was a wonderful strip. But, I think there is something sad about it. When she was young, she experienced wonder in everything around her house.
Her imagination is certainly running on full steam, making the weatherfish into a "real" fish, similar to how children have rather excellent imaginations. I suspect the jumps in memory are probably part of that as well (note the surprise where she jumps from getting the earrings to having new clothes). It is sad to see her lose that ability, though (but it does explain a lot of why she likes fish, even though she can't eat them!)
> The change in Alpha's body language is really amazing in this chapter. In the beginning, she is very childlike, but when she models the ribbon, it's very adult.
Yes, I've noted before that Ashinano has superb observational skills for this sort of thing, certainly much more aware than the average person (which makes YKK a careful read). I note her cat-like behaviour also starts here (cleaning cups) but that may be part of being a robot and all.
> It's important to remember that "to thirst' has the meaning of "to thirst for knowledge" in English - but in Japanese it doesn't carry this connotation.
I suspect Ashinano is implying the English connotation in a roundabout way. It does seem to fit the current situation that Alpha is in and that she needs to have more stimulii to keep her intrigued in the world now that Takahiro (and Makki?) are leaving/left.
- PC
Thursday, January 1, 2004
I would have to say that civilizations have become advanced enough that apparently Alpha is "programmed" to experience thirst, hunger and emotions. Whether she was really programmed, aka scripted to feel these, or if she has an AI that allows her to learn how to experience thirst, hunger etc is uncertain.
- Roy Zhou
Thursday, January 1, 2004
"Her imagination is certainly running on full steam, making the weatherfish into a "real" fish, similar to how children have rather excellent imaginations." -PC
My take on the "fish" was a bit different.
I thought that since it was Alpha's childhood, she may not have been able at the time, to tell the difference between a "real" fish and the fish-shaped weathervane. So when she looked at the weathervane, all she saw was a fish.
Just my interp...
- Ced
Friday, January 2, 2004
I think it is possible the "live" weather-fish in the dream may be the memory of the present spilling into the dream, this was just before she drifted awake, with the wooden fish right there (note the weather fish was not in the first overall view of the cafe). Also I think the weather fish is Alpha's handiwork, looking a little cruder than Sensie's keychain, indicating earlier, less skilled, work.
Of course the live fish may have been Alpha tuning in on Director Alpha during one of her sessions of flying the ship, or even swimming.
Or just one of your basic spiritual visions that effected her, or at least her art, for years after.
Remember this is a dream, not the replaying of a video tape. The reasons given in the dream for staying might only indicate that Alpha may now regard the reasons she gave for staying at that time (if she even remembers them) as being childish and trivial. I wish a could find a book on "Fish in Japanese Thought and Imagination", there is a feeling of much being implied or suggested that is missing my westeren sensibilities entirely.
- Kurt H. Krohn
Saturday, January 3, 2004
PS:
I will need to recheck to be sure but it seems to me that the weather fish is always pointed AWAY from the viewer. Indicating no going back? or everyone leaving? Nothing is done casually in this series, from "I'm only cold in front" to the broken down car in the shed (Alpha will have that out and running within the year I would expect, [with help from Takahiro when he visits] or learn a lot about life trying).
- Kurt H. Krohn
Saturday, January 3, 2004
Hi everyone.
Wonderful chapter, thanks for releasing it.
I was wondering if the spoken Japanese used would give a hint as to the gender of Owner.
-k
- Kempis Curious
Sunday, January 4, 2004
Howdy,
We only have two instances where we have heard Owner's own words. The first is the note he leaves on Alpha's door. The second is the message Kokone delivers. Neither has any definitive hint on whether Owner is male or female, but the way the notes are written has a masculine flair about it. However, it wouldn't be out of the usual for a older woman to speak that way either.
My hunch is that Owner is male, but keep in mind that Koumiishi sensei had a similar relationship to Director Alpha, so a female wouldn't be out of the question.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Sunday, January 4, 2004
Owner's gender has been kept scrupulously ambiguous. While this is easier in Japanese than in English (which makes translating a pain in the neck, on occasion), it's clearly intentional.
I usually think of owner as male, but if I had to lay a bet, I'd say that s/he is female. I think Ashinano is keeping it hazy so as to surprise everyone in the end.
- dn
Sunday, January 4, 2004
Easier in English? How so? (Besides the pronouns.) ^_^
I thought that everyday male/female Japanese speech was different enough to be able to tell the difference when written down. Or does the distinction grow far less as a woman ages and starts not to care anymore, and as men age and finally discover dignity? :D
Also, does Director Alpha speak in the same manner as Owner? (No reason to ask that, of course.) (Heh ha ha)
-k
curious
- Kempis Curious
Monday, January 5, 2004
Easier to be ambiguous about a third party in Japanese--avoiding pronouns in English sounds awkward.
There are differences in male and female speech in Japanese, but it isn't uncommon for someone to use a neutral form which gives away nothing. The little speech of Owner's that we've seen has a formal, educated feel to it; this kind of language is less likely to contain gender markers.
- dn
Monday, January 5, 2004
Howdy,
It's easier in Japanese because you don't have to make complete sentences in Japanese. You can drop the pronouns out entirely, if the context makes them clear.
So you end up with literarily translated passages such as the following: "Won't be coming home for a while. Encourage to go out and see the world." Awkward in English, in Japanese, because it has already been established that it is owner talking to Alpha, you don't need to include the pronouns.
While there is a "woman's style of talking" (just as there are masculine ways of talking) standard Japanese is gender neutral for the most part, and that is what is being used for Owner's speech. The passages do have mannerisms indicating the speaker is older, but nothing definite to indicate male or female.
While on the topic of language, it's also interesting to note that Kokone uses polite language to Alpha, showing a certain deference and respect. Alpha uses casual speech in return. It's almost impossible to express these differences in politeness in English....
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Monday, January 5, 2004
Howdy,
Sorry, I missed this part of your question:
>Also, does Director Alpha speak in the same manner as Owner? (No reason to ask that, of course.)
From what little we have seen of Owner's speech, it's clear they speak very differently. Owner has the somewhat literary style of an educated elder. Alpha has a very carefree and casual way of speaking to everyone.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Monday, January 5, 2004
> 8) "Programming", at least from this, seems to be derived largely from vocal suggestion.
I would only like to remind us all that Alpha is certainly the "A.I.", meaning, she is >> not << programmed in absolutelly any way. You will notice that the whole point of getting Alpha to the cafe, taking care of her, and for me, letting her be alone and learn new experiences (and see how she behaves alone with few human contact i.e. how human she can get) is part of an "experience" (w/o third intentions, only to see her limitations and abilities as an independent being, or perhaps to allow her to "grow" without outside influence).
Real A.I. cannot be programmed or scripted, actually, the goal of A.I. research is exactly to create a system capable of self-learn ... Alpha is exactly that, thus we see she once was "childish", and not only that, all things tend to show us that she is better then Director Alpha (I think Director Alpha was too "perfect" and could not pass as a human) or the other A7M3.
And that's why A.I. research is progressing so "slow": You cannot program or create A.I., you will actually "stumble" on it. One day some research will be able to implement a self-learning A.I. that though don´t look like A.I. at all (i.e. can do nothing), can learn anything. The first step of A.I. research with is yet not complete is to create a universal database which can hold any kind of information (abstract, real, etc...), but while we still don´t even have a way to store such complex informations, let alone handle and learn them.
- Caio Lima Netto
Wednesday, January 7, 2004
Every story tells different things to different reader. To me:
Once again I see that the passing of time is the essential core of YKK. The pure physical volume/s of an universe that has expanded very slowly for almost a decade underlines it.
This includes the themes of aging and waning, and gives us nice little surprises in the "poem of the day" manner that Ashinano masters in such a wonderful way, as in the episode where Alpha discovers the pocari machine on field. "After all those years, it is still working".
We have seen how Alpha's world is slowly expanding. First she wanted to stay because there were so much she still hadn't done (counterclockwise or clockwise), but now she has made her first trip, and she has now the Wide Map Maruko gave her. It is a matter of time when Alpha will leave for another trip.
Ultimately, she might leave to see the Owner, perhaps, and somehow I wish that the last chapter would be that one. To me YKK would be most beautiful if it wouldn't really "end".
- Jari Lehtinen
Friday, January 9, 2004
>> From what little we have seen of Owner's
speech, it's clear they speak very differently. Owner has the somewhat literary style of an educated elder. Alpha has a very carefree and casual way of speaking to everyone.
Oh, darn. ^_^
I was thinking it might have made sense that Director Alpha was Owner. I got that impression from Sensei saying Alpha was related to herself (grandma?), Director Alpha always looking down at where Alpha lives, same face and name, and maybe Owner leaving was actually Director Alpha's assignment to the flying library.
Bummer. I suppose it wouldn't be likely that Director Alpha as Owner would speak differently to Baby Alpha. Also I get the feeling that Director Alpha has been upstairs longer than Alpha has been alive. : (
-k
- Kempis Curious
Sunday, January 11, 2004
> I would only like to remind us all that Alpha is certainly the "A.I.", meaning, she is >> not << programmed in absolutelly any way.
She is programmed via life experience; this includes actions she does, interactions with other people and so on. However, you definition of "programmed" is probably different to mine. Alpha in the sense probably did not have a bunch of programmers sit down and write her core functions beyond a certain point, that is certain.
If I tell someone how to do something, is that not programming? (Some people would find this insulting, but loosely taken, it is "programming"). If I show someone how to do something... or if I send a list of instructions, that also is considered programming in my view.
> The first step of A.I. research with is yet not complete is to create a universal database which can hold any kind of information (abstract, real, etc...), but while we still don´t even have a way to store such complex informations, let alone handle and learn them.
It's called the Internet and other related data repositories.
Any capable AI should be capable of searching and referencing material at libraries and on the Internet by itself, similar to a human. This way, a full complement of database information is not required, only what is needed at the time (and how much space the AI has to keep it).
I still maintain the first AI's to pass the Turing test will be evolved IRC or IM bots that are able to synthesize knowledge online and produce informed opinions while discussing to other people or AI's. Once that hurdle is out of the way, other senses can be added towards making a full scale robot/android etc.
- PC
Monday, January 12, 2004
I thought it was interesting that Alpha's earrings weren't a "factory default" feature but were given to her later. Since most/all robots seem to have earrings (from a previous topic), it raises the question of whether they all acquired them during their development phase and what functionality (if any) they may have.
Then again, perhaps Alpha's development into adulthood and her receiving earrings is just coincidental. Still fun to speculate.
- DK
Tuesday, January 13, 2004
Someone implied that Alpha was looking at the fish weathervane, already there, and imagining it as alive and flying. My sense there was that Alpha was having some sort of waking dream or vision at that point - there have been other visions of flying things in the series - and that she made the fish later and put it in the same spot, for some reason of her own. (Maybe one that she can no longer remember, though that's just my spin.)
Alpha as a "child" is shown as not very self-aware. I get the idea that she may have been more susceptible to the sort of visionary dreams she has later on, to the point that she could experience them without having to be asleep. For some reason I'm convinced that she wasn't asleep when she saw that fish...
Random thoughts.
- Lurker Goz
Sunday, January 18, 2004
I have had a theory about Owner for a while. It's not a very strong theory, but I can't seem to shake it.
What if Owner doesn't exist? I thought that maybe "Owner" was some kind of construct to aid Alpha's early development.
There is lots of evidence that Hasseno exists. Someone had to send Kokone to Alpha, and there's the recommendation Ayase used to see the Water God, and all the other stuff I can't remember now. Ok, bad theory.
but..
When Ayase visits cafe Alpha, he is surprised when Alpha mentions her owner. He actually says "There was someone here?" and then goes on to talk about weird rumours about the area. And then there is the fish dream, where Owner's voice doesn't seem to have a source, and the gifts given to Alpha appear out of thin air. This got me thinking again.. perhaps at least some of Alpha's earlier experiences didn't happen in the physical world. It would be possible with the technology they have.
I don't really think that this is all true, after all, dreams don't have to follow the laws of physics. But it's possible :)
- Brad Edwards
Monday, January 19, 2004
Don't forget that Alpha's Owner left her a note tacked to the front door in the prologue, and later sent her the camera and a message via Kokone.
- dn
Monday, January 19, 2004
First time poster, but this I've got to put up.
I didn't see the fish that Alpha remembered as the weathervane or as an hallucination when I first read it, and it actually surprised me to read all of your other ideas. Not to say you all were wrong, just that I never thought of it that way. It seemed to me that the fish was a sort of craft that Owner was boarding, and that the weathervane is there later to remind Alpha of that time.
- Bin Bin & the Stache
Tuesday, January 20, 2004
In the episode when Kokone comes to visit, but Alpha has gone on her walkabout, Ojisan let's her stay in the house overnight.
And Kokone finds, in Alpha's room, lots of fish. Several of these fish are obviously Alpha creations.
There are fish everywhere in Alpha's house.
These fish must relate to something very specific about Alpha. It's her personal motif. Why?
And was this fish incident a dream, or was it a message?
- steven austin
Saturday, March 13, 2004
Alpha does swim ve-e-ery well.
- Bin Bin and the Stache
Saturday, March 13, 2004
(I'm having trouble posting...apologies if this gets duplicated)
Director Alpha swims in a salty river on the Taapon.
The Misago is very comfortable in seawater.
Alpha is a natural in the sea.
Do the early Alphas possess an in-built affinity for saltwater? Why?
(Are you ready for this?)
What if the early Alpha series robot-persons were not machined, not in the way we might be thinking? Remember the hospital set-up when Sensei cares for Alpha after the lightning?
What if the early Alpha series robot-persons were nano machine projects...that were allowed to develop in vitro?
What if the early Alpha series robot-persons were carried by human women, and "birthed?" This could be a clue that they floated in amneotic fluid. Salt water.
- steven austin
Sunday, March 14, 2004
Howdy,
I don't believe that the robots grow physically. I think they are manufactured at an adult size. However, they definitely have a mental "growing up" period, where they are very child-like a first.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Sunday, March 14, 2004
There are experiements underway right now to incorporate animal neurons into robotic machines. The idea is to create a robot that can learn. Typically, the neurons come from creatures that are simple and have large cells. I read about frog neurons in use. There must have been some progress in the method because I also read about rat neurons in some robots. All this work is very fundamental at this stage.
What if the robot brains were first modeled on simpler creatures such as fish? Later, as the research progressed, the brains became more complex.
There is an entire school of autonomous robot development (pioneered at MIT) that tries to re-create the process of evolution. The first objective is to create a robotic model of an insect. Next, the researchers try to model the behavior of amphibians and reptiles. The idea is to build good working models for simple tasks and behaviors before going on to more complex behaviors.
The last step envisioned is to give the creature self-awareness and real independence.
Perhaps the author is shaping his story around this research.
- Loran
Monday, March 15, 2004
RE: A.I.
>>Luke<<
>8) "Programming", at least from this, seems to be derived largely from vocal suggestion.
>>Caio Lima Netto<<
>>And that's why A.I. research is progressing so "slow": You cannot program or create A.I., you will actually "stumble" on it. One day some research will be able to implement a self-learning A.I. that though don´t look like A.I. at all (i.e. can do nothing), can learn anything. The first step of A.I. research with is yet not complete is to create a universal database which can hold any kind of information (abstract, real, etc...), but while we still don´t even have a way to store such complex informations, let alone handle and learn them.
>>PC<<
>>>It's called the Internet and other related data repositories.
Any capable AI should be capable of searching and referencing material at libraries and on the Internet by itself, similar to a human. This way, a full complement of database information is not required, only what is needed at the time (and how much space the AI has to keep it).
I still maintain the first AI's to pass the Turing test will be evolved IRC or IM bots that are able to synthesize knowledge online and produce informed opinions while discussing to other people or AI's. Once that hurdle is out of the way, other senses can be added towards making a full scale robot/android etc.
--SNIP--
Two words: Meaning and Context.
Let me give you an example, based on language. Suppose you're given the sentence: "Flying bats are a real worry." What does that mean? Does "bat" refer to a long stick used in a baseball game or does it refer to a certain nocturnal mammal capable of flight? It is ambiguious, yes? This IS one of the major problems of A.I. research and relates. We know what the word "bat" MEANS, but we don't which meaning it is refering to. So how would we solve this problem? By looking at it's CONTEXT, either before or after the sentence was giving.
So what does this mean for A.I.? Well, at the moment with our current models of A.I., we can do meaning very well, however we are not good at context. We can build a very large repository of data, no doubt about that, but we can't manipulate this data well enough to have any reasonable A.I. which could pass Turing's test.
- royalfool
Monday, March 15, 2004
I think the fish implies that Alpha is a fish out of water.
*rimshot*
- Hekima
Thursday, March 18, 2004
In regards to what Royalfool said about stumbling upon AI I belive that Connections shows that Sensei and the research team she was a part of did just that. They were hoping that the boats they had built would lead them to creating AI and robots like Alpha but as Sensei pointed out they came to creation of the robots using a totally different technology.
- Christine K
Thursday, March 18, 2004
well one way to take on the problem of teaching AI "context" is just like how you teach small children. As we seen in this chapter there is a time where Alpha isn't fully developed mentaly. This implies that they don't have information downloaded to them or are just preprogramed with,(well other then the messages kokone delivers) they have to experiance it first had and have to either figure it out for themselves, of have some one explain it to them.
its easy to see how this can be compaired to rasing a child. in fact the idea s completely the same. When the AI is "born" (as they often refer themselvs as being) they are not born with knowlage of any of the world around them. thuse turning them to mentaly infants, while physicly adult. One takes this approch to AI because the programing for such a conciousness can be confined to just self development capabilites. Once you develop the ability to learn the rest will take care of its self. these technolagies have already been underdevelopment for years already. Theres a AI program at MIT that has bee taking this approch since 1995 or so. both students and professors state that they can feel the robot gitting "more intelegent every year." though its not developing as fast as a human child, because the learning algeritums havn't been perfected, it is learning.
being "programed to learn" also explains alpha's desire to explore as well as imagine, dream, or recreate things she's learned in other midea (i.e. fish sculpture) as well as other personality traits. it would also insure that all androids, even ones of the same model, would have different personalites. though it would be some similarities at an unconsious level that would stem form the base programming.
another thing i've noticed is theres no referance to how long Alpha has been with owner, but everyone pretty much agrees that owner is reletivly old him/herself. As well as all the people infolved in here divelopment. It is likely that the age differace detween alpha and owner is that of a parent and child, but we just never see the earlyest stages of development. we can also see the parent-child type relationship between apha and owner.
also with note to why Nai says "males are wearker and die young" this is an actual affliction of human childeren. statictics show that on average males are more likely to be born premature, and underweight. females tend to wait till they more developed and healthy to be born. this has the affect that females are more likly to survive infancy, as well as possable complacations. in today's world of 6 billion people females make up 51% of the population. thought femails make up 49.5% of births.
um i think i had to say on the subject, but i forget....
- Canti-sama
Friday, March 19, 2004
Was just reading this old thread and got an idea.
Some poster here made connection between fish and Alpha/Director Alpha.
We know that there are fishes in the sea in this world.
Alpha has tranced into a fish-like and bird-like states. They are very good swimmers.
While I don't get the bird part, but this affinity with fishes has got me thinking. We knows mammals are dying or dead. We know there's no birds left. We knows human beings are on their last leg before extinction. If we assume that robots are biological beings, they must be has some sort of biological basis. Basically they are humanoid beings which can either reproduce biologically (child birth) or mechanically (running factories producing other robots). But if they are biologically based, their "flesh" must be based on something that's not manufactured, but grown.
I don't have a degree in biochem so this maybe pure BS, but here's my guess. So mamillian DNA can't survive this extinction, we know that cus all mammals including human are becoming sterile. So, if I am a scientist creating another humanoid species, I would find a way for them to reproduce. We know human DNA can't do it anymore. Okay, what's left on this planet that's not going to extinct? Fishes, of course.
So the first thing I would do if I were Sensei or Owner, I would find what in the fishe's DNA's resistant to the deadly radiation that's causing infertitility in other animals. If I found it, then I would inject its DNA to a human DNA and try to give birth to a child which is immune to the radiation.
Now the existance of the Misago makes sense. She was a failed "robot" who has the DNA of a fish (or other reptile/amphibian) in her human body, but perhaps her non-human DNA was too dominate, and thus she became this half-human, half-reptilian creature who looked kinda human, enjoys raw fish she killed herself, and lack communication skills. The A7 robots had the right combination of DNA to appear as fully functioning human beings, but they are protected from the damning effects of the radiation.
Then why are they called "Robots" instead of another new species of human beings? Perhaps they can't reproduce in the same fashion as real humans... with sexual reproduction and natural child birth. I would guess that they are still created in labs.
Let's see how would they be created. My guess is via cloning. Once a successful "robot"'s born with the right combination of human/non-human DNA for long-term survivial, that "robots" is cloned to create another one. Before the DNA-tweaking techniques are mastered, they can only make identical clones: thus we have Alpha and Director Alpha. The first perfect "robot" (A7) and her clone sister. Now the name Alpha also makes sense.
Now with more experiences behind them, more A7s are cloned from Alpha. But now they can do a better job of genetic manipulation that each one of them can now appears as unique individials, yet based on the same source DNA from Alpha.
So assuming robots are born in a lab; I wonder what do they use for womb? How much do they grow? We know fishes reaches adulthood in a year or less, so maybe that's why their childhood years are short? In the first volume, Sensei seemed to be giving Alpha new skin and/or hair; maybe they have better regenetive capabilites? Or maybe they need artificial skins because their DNA doesn't allow them to grow human-like skins? Did the non-human DNA gave the robots some extra-sensory power which only existed in other animals? Why can't the robots have children and stop being "robots"?
I guess this theory only raises more question than answers. I just hope the author has the heart to give us the answers before he ends the series.
- JC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Where does it say that all animals and humans are becomming sterile? I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the series, as far as I know they are still "Active" I mean, we still have Takahiro don't we?
Also, I also agree that the "robots" don't grow. From the recent chapters we have seen that Alpha was still a curious child even when she looked like an adult, if she had grown up from the size of an infant she wouldn't have that air of innocence around her.
- Michael Kao
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Do you see any animals in the series? A cat? A cow? Do you see any other mobile non-human living things except fishes, birds, insects, and kamas?
Have you noticed there are less and less people around? How DA and the Janitor on the Tappon talks about more towns are becoming abandoned and Alpha commenting how her town and house around her are becoming more deserted?
Notice how there's NO OTHER CHILDREN aside from Makki and Taka? You've seen the town folks; where are their children? How did everyone in the Tappon DIED out? Why are they all old people? Where are the middle aged or the kids on Tappon? Notice Makki and Taka didn't goto school? Notice how the kindergarden in Yokohama are being used as a museum? What happened to the kids? How many people did Alpha see on her year long trip? Does that sounds like a trip on an island with some of the most dense population in the world?
Read the series again with this information in mind. A lot of things would become more clear. Asahino never said the word exinction outright, but you can put the puzzel together pretty easily. Plus the fact that YKK was described as a human extinction story on Kodansha's own site...
http://www.kodanclub.com/cgi-local/comic.cgi?id=009-00029-01-008
- JC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Howdy,
There are plenty of kids shown in YKK.
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume1/21
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume2/85
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume3/43
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume5/17
There's more if you look.
I think that because Alpha lives out in the sticks, we see a somewhat skewed view of what the world looks like. Whenever we are shown a city such as Yokohama or Musashino, there are young people, adults and kids around.
Ashinano has made it clear that we are witnessing the decline of an age, but other that the catastrophe that raised the seas, I don't see anything sudden going on.
The folks on Taapon also seem to be somewhat out of touch with what's going on down on the ground.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Of course there are still kids, there's just not enough to replace the people who died. It's a gradual extinction, probably taking place over several hundred years before the last one of us dies. But it is significant and works itself into everything in the world of YKK.
The decline of an age? Sure, when we have 10 adults and only 2 children, the age is going down the toilets. We all see the obvious, all I'm try to do is to explain all the mysteries based on the very limited data given to us.
As for the Tappon, since it's designed never to land; how did become empty? All the people living on it just decided not to have babies? They designed the thing so it'll become their tombs? If that's the case, why did they ask DA to return after they're all dead? Why did they consider this a failure? What failed?
I mean you can do all sort of speculations but this is real easy to put together. At least thus far I can't find a better explaination for the existance of the Tappon and why eventually DA's the only one on it.
I guess some people must let the subtlety remain subtle. I think knowing the reason behind all this added a real sense of meloncholy to the story, and I can feel even more emotional depth. Now I know why Alpha feels so attached to the kids. Why the Misago also loved kids and never appeared to adults. I know why the robots even existed. I know why the camera owner send to Alpha is so special. I know why the house near the cafe falls into decay. I know why Taka has to leave the town to find work. I know why there's power, water, but not telephone. I know why the kids has to be home-schooled. I know now why the Water Gods are a big deal to owner and many others. I know why nature must create fake building and lights out of plant life. I know why there's just not a lot of people anywhere, and everyone, although appearantly content and happy, always carry a sense of sadness with them. This answers so many things and just increased my appreciation of the world of YKK and Asahino's story telling depth so much that this IS my favorite manga of all time.
I guess there are people who choose not to see YKK in this dimension; that's perfectly fine with me. I just like to share my theories, and if some people don't like it or don't see it same way, that's okay. As long as people's enjoying this work, I'm all for it.
- JC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"I know why there's power, water, but not telephone. "
I missed this. Please elaborate.
- Loran
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Howdy,
No one (especially me) is knocking you or your theories. Ashinano has purposely left many gaping holes in the YKK world. Part of the fun is speculating about what might be going on in these unknown corners. I have a lot of theories myself, but until more evidence comes in, they are unprovable.
But I do try to read the comic carefully. I try to support any theory with evidence, and try to point out where the evidence contradicts theory. I have not once said you are wrong, just that I believe certain things to be otherwise.
I think your speculation is great. It gives me things to think about, and I am always refining and sharpening my own theories from other people's posts. I just don't see some things the same way you do. No big thang. We each can enjoy the story our own way.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
To Loran:
I wrote it here in this tread about Vending Machines:
http://ykk.misago.org/Forum?cmd=show&id=779&replies=18
Basically I theorized that power and water plants are moved to major cities and being maintained by robots and qualified human engineers, but since there are only so many people left, they have to leave some industry go. If you think about it, power and water definately gets priority over telecommunications or transportation. Thus most of the existing manpower gets used to maintain the basics, and society were forced to use more primative form of communication and travel, such as couriors and walking.
To dave:
No problem. I'm just glad to have debate about YKK. I love it to death thus it's really fun talking about it. I can't just goto my co-worker and start discussion the significance of water gods in YKK, can't I? :)
- JC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Howdy,
There is what seems to be a phone on Kokone's desk here:
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume5/37
And the power pole in the background here has two tiers of wires. Normally the lower ones are phone, and the upper are power.
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume5/58
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Perhaps there are limited telephone service within major cities like Yokohama. That would make sense, since commerce must still happen and we know that it does. Perhaps residential services and rural services is what got dropped.
The lines could be anything; it could indeed be old telephone lines, but there's definately no phone or even a postman in Alpha's township.
Furthermore, we do know instead of calling home, Taka has to beg NAI to fly him home so he can drop some mail for his family and friends. That's awful lot of work in a world where mail and telecomm systems are still intact.
- JC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Howdy,
Yeah, that's what I think too. That phone service exists only in the cities anymore. Too bad Ashinano never addresses any "modern" tech like cell phones, radio phones or the like. The only high tech stuff in YKK are the robots and Taapon.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
There is most certainly postal delivery in Alpha's "township", since Kokone sends her letters every so often and Alpha also wrote back to her.
- Ian Darrow
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Don't forget the crate of booze Kokone had delivered to Alpha. There must be quite a significant postal service still operating. The lack of phones is puzzling, radio does still work. Perhaps it's the microelectronic aspect of this that prevents it being used. The only other broadcast equipment I've seen is the remote that Sensei connected Alpha to that WIG ship with.
However, when Alpha loses her camera after falling down the hole, she finds it after getting a sudden flash of herself from the camera's eye view. Was Alpha's link to the camera so strong that she momentarily established a remote link to it? A foreshadowing of things to come?
- Andy Tucker
Thursday, May 13, 2004
Howdy,
When I have read that chapter before, I didn't pick up that Alpha may have seen herself from the camera's point of view. Very interesting - food for thought. The page is here for the curious:
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume7/68
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Thursday, May 13, 2004
Yeah my bad about lack of a postal system. I guess letters still go around.
Come to think of it, it doesn't take much brain power to maintain a postal system; Just a few guys who could read and walk. It does take more qualified engineers to maintain a telephone system though.
My idea on the centralization of major services is based mainly the lack of "qualified" people. With diminishing population, number of smart or motivated people decreases. In order to keep complex infrastructure running these qualified folks should be centralized to a few place where they can maintan the key infrastrucures like power everyone else depends on. Postal system does not require that much brain power, but telecom systems, oh boy. I'll tell ya, I'm a network engineer and I won't touch our PBX system with a ten foot pole.
So yeah, a simple and slow postal system may still exist, but phones, TV, statellites, I think they are just symbols of the past glory in YKK.
- JC
Thursday, May 13, 2004
The camera maybe a part of her to begin with, or owner created the camera just for her unique "inputs".
The camera to me is the "Memory of Mankind." Alpha records images of her friends with it, knowing that they will one day be long gone, but in her mind they will always be just as alive as the day she recorded them. I get a little emotional everytime I think about it.
Mass extinction of human being was a very scary thought for me. Yes After reading YKK, I thought, well, if we can leave our memories with wonderful beings like Alpha, maybe it's not so bad after all.
- JC
Thursday, May 13, 2004
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