Some thoughts regarding the size of Taapon:
(I wonder was it discussed earlier) =)
From ch.26 it is possible to directly measure it with comparing it to Dir.Alpha - something like 2,5 km long and 4.0 km wingspan. Phew. What a scale! No way such a monster can takeoff from the surface (even if there IS such an airfield =)) - it must be orbital constructed and than slowly descended into stratospere.
Height it flies is not so fantastic - 15-18 km, 25 max. Overwise it have to look smaller than in manga. Still, it is much higher than most clouds. Oh, yes. Speed must be at the scale of modern jets too - 1000-1500 kph.
Interesting object. I imagine possible stresses over the wings... What helluwa kind of material could they use?.. =)
- Drake
Friday, November 12, 2004
Wow that's one freakingly big plane. Yeah they would have to construct it in orbit to make it that big. It would be a project not unlike that of the International Space station where they send parts of it up during each trip into orbit. Now unless they figured out how to make spaceships the size of an aircraft carrier that thing would take a long time to make. Plus it would have to be constructed with the cooperation of several nations just to pull it off. I also have the feeling that this plane was built around the same time the first Alpha models were being developed. How else would it be possible for Director Alpha to pilot the thing with nothing more than a mouth cord and her tongue? So it could be that either Director Alpha was created just for the Tapon or the Tapon was created with Director Alpha, or one of the Alpha model prototypes, in mind. It'll be interesting to see if a flashback to the early days of the Tapon is ever done so we can learn these things.
- Christine K
Friday, November 12, 2004
Howdy,
I think this scene is also indicative of the international nature of Taapon:
http://ykk.misago.org/Volume4/46.html
The way the mop lady refers to Japan seems to indicate that she herself wasn't born there.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Friday, November 12, 2004
It could be that Taapon was built and launched as a seaplane. What puzzles me is where does it get the propulsive power to stay up so high for so many years? Even hi-efficiency solar cells aren't going to provide enough power to drive it at the sorts of speeds that it needs to maintain flight. Nuke plants don't last that long without needing refuelling. Maintenance? What do they do if something goes wrong?
Maybe it's an organic construct, like the robots or a genetically modified bird...
- Robert Sneddon
Saturday, November 13, 2004
How about THIS?
What if the Taapon came here from somewhere else? What if it's actually extra-terrestrial?
Then we could wonder whether the robot-people:
1) ...came with the Taapon and were mostly dispersed into the curiously-diminished Japanese population for as-yet-undisclosed reasons?
2) ...were designed and built as a joint-venture between the Taapon crew and the folks in Japan to fill a not-yet-fully-explained need in Japan and on the Taapon?
3) ...came with the Taapon as reserve technology, ended up in the hands of a fatally-wounded human race after the humans actually conspired to defeat the Taapon crew, and the human survivors act as awed midwives?
Interesting that we have several elements in this story that profess to be beyond the reach of time. The Taapon "can't" come down, and Alpha is going to "watch the passing of this twilit age."
- seaweb
Saturday, November 13, 2004
Wow I've never thought of it that way before. Imagine if he does admit in the end that the robots are extraterrestrial. That would put a whole new spin on things. And it would explain why the robots age differently than the humans.
- Christine K
Saturday, November 13, 2004
Wow. Sea plane is a good idea. I recall that Sensei was constructing airfoil ships with rear wings, and it is well corresponding to Fish Kun/Bird Da Peng chineese legend too...
If assume that Dir. Alpha came on board before it took off, it means that Taapon was constructed and launched after catastrophe (if there was any) - quite a feat for post-apocalypse world
- Drake
Sunday, November 14, 2004
Well, I won't dispute that the extraterrestrial theory fits the observed facts, but I think it is far more complicated than necessary. An elegant theory should be simple - and if we're going to introduce extraneous elements like extraterrestrials, we might as well go whole hog in terms of deus ex machina and consider supernatural explanations, too.
No, I think the seaplane story was told to us to indicate that Sensei was somehow involved in the design and construction of Taapon.
I can't begin to imagine the materials technology necessary to construct such an absurdly huge flying vehicle - but I think postulating human innovation involved in this production is more reasonable than introducing extraterrestrials.
- abunai
Sunday, November 14, 2004
>> it must be orbital constructed and than slowly descended into stratospere. <<
I think there's another possible method: the plane is constructed on earth then air-lifted by balloons or blimps to a cruising level. A cheaper alternative for sure.
>> I imagine possible stresses over the wings... What helluwa kind of material could they use?.. =) <<
E.g. some revolutionary composites ^_^ Overall Taapon reminds me of largely upscaled Voyager (http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/rutanvoy.htm)
>> What puzzles me is where does it get the propulsive power to stay up so high for so many years? <<
Maybe Taapon flaps its wings time to time, but only when nobody, even Ashinano-sensei, sees it ^_^
BTW, could the plane just glide at times to conserve the power? Birds usually do...
- Teisuu
Monday, November 15, 2004
(Sorry to be lazy, but...) Wasn't there a comment when Alpha "flew" Sensei's hydrofoil that time that Alpha optimized it somehow in some unexpected way? And wasn't Alpha surprised at how seamlessly she seemed to merge with it?
Perhaps Director Alpha brought to the assembled-on-water Taapon the extra oomph it needed to reach a takeoff velocity across a calm ocean. Besides being the "pilot," Director Alpha "coordinates" flight engineering on the Taapon in a very symbiotic way.
But then, why can't she guide it back down? Did she lose some ability?
(Sorry to be lazy again, but...) Have we noticed the Taapon leaving a contrail? If so, it's not orbital, just high in the atmosphere. That would mean the takeoff speed wouldn't need to be, like, fourteen thousand miles per hour. The Taapon doesn't look like a spaceship so much as an aircraft.
- seaweb
Wednesday, November 17, 2004
Howdy,
>Wasn't there a comment when Alpha "flew" Sensei's hydrofoil that time that Alpha optimized it somehow in some unexpected way?
There is nothing in the comic to suggest this.
>And wasn't Alpha surprised at how seamlessly she seemed to merge with it?
There is plenty of evidence that shows Alpha's affinity for, and occasional deep connection to, machines. It does seem to surprise her each time.
>But then, why can't she guide it back down? Did she lose some ability?
My guess is that Taapon's *purpose* over-rides any personal desire on Director Alpha's part to return to Earth.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Ah. The unexpected part was just that she could receive signals from the hydrofoil, not that she added anything to its performance. And Sensei was surprised at how well Alpha connected with the ship.
Interesting that Sensei points out a relationship to Alpha between these ships she built and robotics development. They do seem to be designed to be piloted on their course by robot people "riding the wire."
Make me think of a weapons guidance system.
- seaweb
Thursday, November 18, 2004
There's also the time in Nai's plane when he seemed surprised that Alpha could "connect" with the flying experience so well via her camera's mouth-cord (Volume 8 069.jpg and succeeding). Sadly this part wasn't included in the anime.
It seems the M1 and M2 models are more sensitive than the later M3s (I assume here Nai is an M3) to mouth-cord communications. It also might explain Kokone's puzzlement at Alpha's over-reaction when she passed on her "message". (Volume 2 012.jpg)
- Robert Sneddon
Monday, November 22, 2004
I wonder why Alpha is much more sensitive than the rest of her "siblings?" It's like she's more human than the rest.
She seems quite special, indeed.
- seaweb
Wednesday, November 24, 2004
It sounds much like other authurs or anime and books have it. And how it is a lot of the time in the real world.
The first few models of something, be it robots like in YKK or Angels in Angelic layer, or a car are overdesigned. Actually overdesigned isn't the right word. Its more like people put more of a hand crafted, time, and tehcnology into them. In the end make them more complexe and powerfull then later models. The later mass produces / more common models are less complexe so more can be made faster and in larger numbers.
I think that why Alpha is so different. She's one of the earlier rare A7 models and when they made her type they probaly put more heart and soul into her model, then decide they couldn't put that much effort and time in and keep it up to produce more models. So then the m3 came out. Less powerfull but still what was need. What ever that need was.
- Miah
Wednesday, November 24, 2004
The Taapon could have been 'manufactured' while flying.
It isn't necessary for Taapon to take off as a one piece assembly. A core part about the size of one or two 747's in tandem (like Rutan's Voyager) could go up first. Supply aircraft could rendezvous with segments or even raw material. A project like this would probably be its own research project and laboratory at the same time as the base machine is being built upon. What a cool concept!
Any aeronautical engineers out there could also make an informed guesstimate of the wing loading/stresses for such a large object. Certainly, there are some remarkable materials available right now that would be good candidates to use.
It also looks like the Taapon was built as a survival ark for humanity. (suggested by the huge BOOK library in the viewing room where Director Alpha sits) http://ykk.misago.org/Volume4/48.html
Obviously some panicked and desperate effort was made to "be somewhere else" when whatever global disaster hit.
- Robin
Tuesday, November 30, 2004
Fascinating topic and one I thought worth continuing...
Anyone have a problem of the Taapon being "grown" to the size it is? It has VERY organic lines and a bird-like form. The robots such as Alpha SEEM to have some organic component to them as evidenced by Ojisan's comment to Alpha that she was bleeding when she hit herself while reconstructing the cafe. (chapter 89/ pg7) as well as the way she "healed" as opposed to simply being repaired after the lightning strike. Perhaps the new technology being employed in the future involves growing semi-organic machines. This way the Taapon could have been built as a much smaller vehicle and grown to its large size in preparation for a sort of mass exodus. The major components could have been supplied and the libraries etc. loaded onboard ahead of time and once launched, it was grown to a size capable of holding a much larger contingent than would have been possible to carry at departure...
I agree that it seems to be more of an ark than a pure research vessel, but being trapped in low orbit (which I believe it to be rather than being strictly propelled) and of such titanic size now, cannot land. It could be possible that it was a sort of last hope in the face of disaster, but the project was begun too late and the technology to reach it with its "cargo" was lost before they could depart. Consequently, the Taapon instead, simply floats above watching the earth die, or perhaps, renew...
- Darin~
Wednesday, March 16, 2005
I like that idea. Think of it more as a kind of space station, rather than an aircraft that takes off from the ground. It could have started off smaller, and empty and launched from the ground while much lighter. Or it could have been grown/constructed completely in the air from some other platform. All of the cargo could be ferried up once the Taapon was capable of carrying it.
I wonder what role (if any) Director Alpha played in the birth of the Taapon.
I wonder if the Taapon and the A7 robot-persons have a common ancestry.. I'm thinking about Alpha's flying dreams.
I wonder how many comments about YKK begin with "I wonder.." :)
- Brad
Wednesday, March 16, 2005
Strangely enough, the interior of the Taapon is just like the surface. Several empty rooms, an aging crew, and a sense of abandon. Director was even instructed to bail out once the crew is all dead.
Yaykes. Depressing.
- Z
Wednesday, March 16, 2005
Has anyone considered that it may be a composite of solid and inflatable structures? It could have begun with an inflatable core, and could have been added to over time, or could have been a solid core constructed on the ground, ballooned aloft (as suggested above), inflated into shape, and launched into horizontal flight, and then added to or reconfigured.
- GC
Thursday, March 17, 2005
Emm... No, it cannot possibly fly on orbital trajectory, because of its speed. Of course our measurments are rough, but low-orbiting speeds sure are great. About 16kkmph for 15km height.. Cant remember for sure. And to be able to move even in rarefied atmosphere with orbital speed it have to be at least at 120-150 km height.
I like the idea of living construction model, thought.
- Drake
Monday, March 28, 2005
It could simply be flying at extreme high altitude but not in orbit. There's no way to tell its speed by simply looking at panels because there's no reference time frame. If it was orbiting, its shape would be a matter of artistic consideration, but if it was flying, it would be more or less predicated on aerodynamic considerations.
- GC
Tuesday, March 29, 2005
Oops, I made a really bad analogy when I mentioned the space station. All I really meant to say was that the taapon didn't have to be capable of taking off from the ground in it's current form. A fleet of smaller craft could have constructed it in the air.. but that seems overly complicated. I really like the idea of the taapon starting out small on the ground, flying up to altitude, then growing in size and having the cargo ferried up to it.
- Brad
Tuesday, March 29, 2005
There is a chapter where we actually hear of the Taapon actually growing, can't recall which one, but the director Alpha was being congratulated for the successful growth of the new tail assembly before the whole ship headed south (for the winter?). So that assumes that the ship is still growing and isn't finished yet. Which makes me think that once it's finished it'll head off somewhere. Into space? Dunno. I think that Alpha is intended to go with it though, all the human crew are expected to leave on completion or die up there. Given the rest of the story I think the ship started as a very large sea-plane and has grown since.
Its propulsive force is a mystery, it might be flapping it's wings, could be magnetoaerodynamic or some sort of high altitude scramjet.
The fact that it has a book library is a little confusing, digital media or microfilmed books would take up a lot less room, though that wouldn't look as cool I admit. Presumably there's a gene bank on board as well.
- Andy Tucker
Thursday, March 31, 2005
Howdy,
I think any mention of Taapon growing is a mistranslation/misinterpretation. Director Alpha was congratulated on changing course direction.
Best,
Dave
- dDave
Thursday, March 31, 2005
Maybe, but from the look of it the congrats were for "generating" the "first and third featherwings". Could be "deploying" I suppose.
http://ykk.misago.org/Afternoon2003/61.html
- Andy Tucker
Friday, April 1, 2005
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